Trial Discussion Thread #36 - 14.05.09 Day 29

[Viper]

I think we can take it that screaming stopped after the shots on more than 'face value' if it's the victim's screams you are referring to. A Black Talon bullet to the head would tend to stop the anguished screams the hits to the hip and arm had generated.

But I know nothing about guns so maybe, since you do seem aware, how do you think he was holding his firearm at the time of the shots? By his side as he says or in the way I'd do it if I had a gun and thought an intruder was about to come at me - with both hands and pointed out from my chest, just like they used to do on Charlie's Angels.

Just replying to your post because it is so authentic, and I loved Charlie's Angels. I didn't have the Farrah Faucet swimsuit poster in my room though, my taste was for Jaclyn Smith, the long haired brunette! :wink:

 

[jay-jay]

To be honest MsMarple I may have snickered until you said 'stop that snickering' before I got a chance to and then I didn't want to anymore if you know what I mean.

Totally off topic but do you like Miss Marple or just chose it as a good websleuths name? I only ask because I like to re-read Agathas after enough time has gone by to forget whodunnit and I've come to realise I really dislike Miss Marple as a character - now she displays TOTAL confirmation bias if I understand the term correctly. Like the little Belgian though - he has more sympathy for human foibles IMO.

Nel reminds me of him sometimes in the way he speaks ... "it is so improbable!"

 

[lithgow1]

Well, what an amazing coincidence then that after Reeva stopped screaming, OP stopped shooting. By the way, he didn't ever mention he was 'deafened' by shots in his affidavit or at his plea hearing. It only appears to have come to light more than a year later when he realised how many people had heard Reeva screaming, and needed to have a reason why he didn't hear it. So yes, I made the assumption he could hear, because when someone tells one lie after another after another (in between blaming past wrongdoings on other people and insulting reliable witnesses, like Dr Stipp for example) it kind of destroys their credibility.

Well said. I hope that either Nel or the judge make mention of that dig at Dr Stipp during OP's direct. Actually I hope both do. Nel never mentioned it in the cross IIRC.

He's guilty of far worse things but it was an insight into OP's horrible head IMO. If it was deliberate in order to try and discredit the doctor I hope it backfired and if it was just a criticism slipped in for personal reasons then it's just another entry on the lengthening list of 'What factors make Oscar Pistorius such an unsympathetic human being'.

 

[james83]

See for me, i agree the gunshot's would have certainly had an affect on his hearing, he may well have been close to not being able to hear much at all for a few minutes, and this for me could well be a reason why this phonecall to netcare business is so confusing, if the gunshot's were fired at around 3.16, i have a feeling he couldn't make out what was being said to him during his phone calls to Stander at 3.19 and then Netcare at 3.20 and eventually gave up on the phonecall and went with this "they told me to bring her in" story.
It would be easy for him to speak to Stander and beg him to come over, but a phone call to an emergency service would have been chaotic if he couldn't hear properly.

 

[jay-jay]

If OP was safety conscious enough to realize a shot into the shower stall might ricochet and hit him near the passage, he was clear thinking enough to have grabbed his shooting range ear protectors when he picked up his gun.

.. or, he may have opened the bathroom window purposely because I think that would help lessen the intensity of the noise in such a confined space.

 

[soozieqtips]

RBBM

For me, it breaks down like this:

- He was screaming like a woman at an intruder while Reeva remained completely mute and never called police for approximately 15 minutes. When he didn't have time to think and it all happened so fast.

- He was screaming like a woman at Reeva, while also yelling like a man, for approximately 15 minutes. Reeva again remained completely mute.

- It was Reeva screaming for approximately 15 minutes with Oscar occasionally shouting/yelling. Her screams became more desperate as the intensity of the situation escalated.

And then of course, once he's "broken down the door" (immediately following the second set of bang shots - when witnesses describe her final scream fading) he manages to pull himself together,
at seeing Reeva, because he doesn't see the point in screaming.

Alrighty, then.

BBM - but don't forget... when he gained access to the toilet and saw he'd "accidentally" blown Reeva's brains out... he did admit to feeling "saddened"...

 

[Viper]

See for me, i agree the gunshot's would have certainly had an affect on his hearing, he may well have been close to not being able to hear much at all for a few minutes, and this for me could well be a reason why this phonecall to netcare business is so confusing, if the gunshot's were fired at around 3.16, i have a feeling he couldn't make out what was being said to him during his phone calls to Stander at 3.19 and then Netcare at 3.20 and eventually gave up on the phonecall and went with this "they told me to bring her in" story.
It would be easy for him to speak to Stander and beg him to come over, but a phone call to an emergency service would have been chaotic if he couldn't hear properly.

OP never said that he had difficulty hearing Stander, and Stander never said that OP had any difficulty hearing him. OP said that he heard Netcare tell him to drive Reeva to the hospital himself.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

RSBM

Judge Nair granted him bail because he felt OP wouldn't be a flight risk, but he declined to downgrade the Schedule 6 offense to Schedule 5 because of some of the same issues many of us here have:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/feb/22/oscar-pistorious-bail-judge-reasons

Thanks
It is interesting to note the reasons for bail being granted to OP when I read up on the other double amputee of limited funds who was originally denied bail for a fraud charge .
I know he has not attempted to flee but with his funds he certainly could have ( particularly after getting his passport back )and wouldn't be the first wealthy person to jump bail.
A much poorer person would be less likely to abscond IMO

 

[Emz73]

See for me, i agree the gunshot's would have certainly had an affect on his hearing, he may well have been close to not being able to hear much at all for a few minutes, and this for me could well be a reason why this phonecall to netcare business is so confusing, if the gunshot's were fired at around 3.16, i have a feeling he couldn't make out what was being said to him during his phone calls to Stander at 3.19 and then Netcare at 3.20 and eventually gave up on the phonecall and went with this "they told me to bring her in" story.
It would be easy for him to speak to Stander and beg him to come over, but a phone call to an emergency service would have been chaotic if he couldn't hear properly.

Why didn't he say, "I rang netcare but couldn't hear them properly because of my ears were ringing"
He's had a year to think all this up!! I could do a better job in a couple of hours....

 

[Hope4More]

I think we can take it that screaming stopped after the shots on more than 'face value' if it's the victim's screams you are referring to. A Black Talon bullet to the head would tend to stop the anguished screams the hits to the hip and arm had generated.

But I know nothing about guns so maybe, since you do seem aware, how do you think he was holding his firearm at the time of the shots? By his side as he says or in the way I'd do it if I had a gun and thought an intruder was about to come at me - with both hands and pointed out from my chest, just like they used to do on Charlie's Angels.

At face value refers to not getting into what earwitnesses say they heard and when. I'm sure you needn't mean the rest about Black Talons etc. to be sarcastic so skipping right along.....

I'm no expert on guns, have no opinion whatsoever on how the gun was held and no curiousity to try to analyze that subjective question.

What guns do to hearing indoors is an objective question which I took the time to look up. Given what is normal after shooting a gun in that space I allow for at least reasonable doubt about whether he heard Reeva scream after the first shot.

 

[Emz73]

When was the first time the defence heard that the ear witnesses heard screaming for 15 minutes or so? I know the PT don't hear it till the expert/witness is on the stand but what about the DT?

 

[lithgow1]

BBM - but don't forget... when he gained access to the toilet and saw he'd "accidentally" blown Reeva's brains out... he did admit to feeling "saddened"...

Yes, that is another Pistorius gem. As someone funnily said here, you're saddened when you leave the butter out and it melts, and I'd add or when your team loses or it rains on your parade, but 'saddened' when you see what he must have seen. In amongst everything else his psychologist has probably given him they should have slipped in a thesaurus.

 

[soozieqtips]

See for me, i agree the gunshot's would have certainly had an affect on his hearing, he may well have been close to not being able to hear much at all for a few minutes, and this for me could well be a reason why this phonecall to netcare business is so confusing, if the gunshot's were fired at around 3.16, i have a feeling he couldn't make out what was being said to him during his phone calls to Stander at 3.19 and then Netcare at 3.20 and eventually gave up on the phonecall and went with this "they told me to bring her in" story.
It would be easy for him to speak to Stander and beg him to come over, but a phone call to an emergency service would have been chaotic if he couldn't hear properly.

Except that he didn't say anything about his damaged hearing being a factor in why he couldn't remember what he said to Netcare. In fact, he never mentioned his deafness as an issue at all except when it came to Reeva screaming. So I have to assume there was nothing wrong with his hearing when he was making phone calls, otherwise he'd have mentioned it during testimony.

 

[jay-jay]

I think you might mean the hole on the bedroom door? IIRC Van Staden did photograph it but not immediately. Ultimately, what he photographs is at his discretion, as he explained in testimony. His first aim was to photograph evidence that had a potential of being moved or possibly destroyed.

Yup. I personally have every confidence in him .. he carried out his function in a methodical manner, all the photographs were taken in a specific sequence .. the route through the house/crime scene as it initially was, then moving certain items in order to photograph pieces of evidence which were previously covered, and then taking photos of things such as the hole in the bedroom door last (i.e. things which could not have been tampered with and hence which were perfectly ok to leave until last). Everything was time stamped, all kept in order .. until Roux, in cross examination, tried to muddy the waters and was attempting to confuse the issue by going back and forth between photos in order to make it look as if they were all just taken randomly and things moved around any old how. I've said it a number of times on here now that it was so obvious to me what Roux was doing there, and VS was really quite annoyed by it and by having to re-explain the systematic and logical order in which the photos had originally been taken.

I bet *he* has a filing system (.. he certainly had them all properly organised on his laptop, that's for sure!)

 

[sicknote]

I don't see how OP not hearing the screams will get him off if the neighbours who heard screams before the shooting are believed.

PS - we both answered sicknote's question at the same time and gave completely opposite answers! So what do you think now sicknote?

I think posters views are as mixed as OP's tale....lol

If she believes the screaming then she believes the lights were on. Surely she must then believe its time for a 25 year stretch?

 

[james83]

Why didn't he say, "I rang netcare but couldn't hear them properly because of my ears were ringing"
He's had a year to think all this up!! I could do a better job in a couple of hours....

because it suggests the gunshots had not long happened, i.e at around 3.16, fatal for his version.

 

[Duchy]

Someone clever will no doubt trump me , Jake.. but from the first get up and go, it was Roux 's contention that the head shot was first.. therefore, all the screaming was Oscar ... as the trial has progressed this area has become more and more firm , some, count me as one of 'em , would say it was concrete that the head shot was last.. that she had been screaming for some time before any shot was fired, and certainly while the shots were fired. ( dr Stipps Testimony ) ..

So its not as if Roux has come to the consensus as yet, at least , in leading or x-exam.. he has sort of let it take its own track and gone with the flow for a few weeks now.. Oscar and Roux dropped the double tap theory very smartly after Mangeena's evidence, so that hasn't raised its head again..

Nel ,I presume is simply nailing it down every opportunity that arises.. head shot last, bang, pause, ( screaming ) bang bang bang, and it seems that has , as truth quite often does, proceeded under its own momentum.

i can't believe there was any screaming whilst there were shots. I do believe there was lots of terrified screaming before.

 

[lithgow1]

At face value refers to not getting into what earwitnesses say they heard and when. I'm sure you needn't mean the rest about Black Talons etc. to be sarcastic so skipping right along.....

I'm no expert on guns, have no opinion whatsoever on how the gun was held and no curiousity to try to analyze that subjective question.

What guns do to hearing indoors is an objective question which I took the time to look up. Given what is normal after shooting a gun in that space I allow for at least reasonable doubt about whether he heard Reeva scream after the first shot.

My Black Talon sentence was meant to be emphatic, not sarcastic, in order to emphasise why someone would have been screaming even if Pistorius couldn't hear it.

From the noise posts I thought you had some experience with guns and as you are one of those who believes in OP's relative innocence I was interested in your thoughts as to why he would be holding the gun in such a useless manner if he thought there was a dangerous intruder about a metre away. As I hinted at earlier, even I would have an idea of how to hold a gun were I in his situation and it wouldn't be like he claims.

 

[Interested Bystander]

BBM - but don't forget... when he gained access to the toilet and saw he'd "accidentally" blown Reeva's brains out... he did admit to feeling "saddened"...

Saddened! Crikey, that is the sort of comment one would make if an acquaintance had been bereaved. Almost total lack of emotion.

 

[Emz73]

because it suggests the gunshots had not long happened, i.e at around 3.16, fatal for his version.

Ahhhh You're right. obviously I wouldn't be good at this....


So he MUST be lying to not admit the deafness!!!