"G (Guilty)" vs "NG (Not Guilty)" Where do you stand? #2

[Searchfortruth]

I am no legal expert, not even close, but I do follow certain cases and pride myself on having some common sense (key word..."some"). At any rate, I really wish I could provide the Florida statute that covers Florida Felony Murder/DP rules. I have read on numerous sites that Florida does have LWOP or the DP as possible sentences if one is convicted of Felony Murder...yes, I have even gathered such information from Wikipedia (I LOVE Wikipedia).

I also gather (from my common sense) that these very seasoned prosecutors would not charge Casey with this crime and ask for the DP if it wasn't legally permissable for them to do so. I have heard from other Florida prosecutors, read Attorney's websites on FL Law and they ALL say that Felony Murder allows for the DP or LWOP. Again, no legal expert and I have no "statute" to ramble off, but my common sense tells me that Casey is eligible for the DP under her current charges.

I am anticipating that Wudge will again ask for the 2009 Statute on this and to save him the time and effort, I will say now, I have no statute, but plenty of other reputable sources that I find trustworthy on FL law. I mean if you have countless numbers of attorneys writing about Felony Murder in Florida and they all say the same thing regarding sentencing, are we suppossed to believe these attys just made it up and didn't get their info from written law ? Asking for proof is one thing, turning away from it is another.

Plus if there was no clear written law in FL covering Felony Murder and the DP, every defense atty in the state would be screaming from the courthouse steps about the injustice. There have been quite a few Florida men sentenced to death under the Felony Murder law. These Defense Atty's wouldn't be explainaing the law on their website they would be putting the word out that the state of FL is sentencing people to death under a law that doesn't exist.

 

[marspiter]

Felony Murder jury instructions

http://www.floridasupremecourt.org/jury_instructions/instructions.shtml#

7.3 FELONY MURDER — FIRST DEGREE
§ 782.04(1)(a), Fla.Stat.

To prove the crime of First Degree Felony Murder, the State must prove the following three elements beyond a reasonable doubt:

1. (Victim) is dead.

Give 2a, 2b, or 2c as applicable.
2. a. [The death occurred as a consequence of and while (defendant) was engaged in the commission of (crime alleged).]

b. [The death occurred as a consequence of and while (defendant) was attempting to commit (crime alleged).]

c. [The death occurred as a consequence of and while (defendant), or an accomplice, was escaping from the immediate scene of (crime alleged).]

Give 3a if defendant actual perpetrator.
3. a. [(Defendant) was the person who actually killed (victim).]

Give 3b if defendant not actual perpetrator.
b. [(Victim) was killed by a person other than (defendant); but both (defendant) and the person who killed (victim) were principals in the commission of (crime alleged).]

In order to convict of First Degree Felony Murder, it is not necessary for the State to prove that the defendant had a premeditated design or intent to kill.

1. Define the crime alleged. If Burglary, also define crime that was the object of burglary.

2. If 2b above is given, also define "attempt" (see 5.1).

3. If 3b is given, immediately give principal instruction (3.5(a)).

4. Since the statute does not require its proof, it is not necessary to define "premeditation."



Notice the Florida Supreme Court defines First Degree Felony Murder as Fla. Statute 782.04 (1)



Here is the statute 782.04(1):
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=Ch0782/SEC04.HTM

782.04 Murder.--
(1)(a) The unlawful killing of a human being:
1. When perpetrated from a premeditated design to effect the death of the person killed or any human being;
2. When committed by a person engaged in the perpetration of, or in the attempt to perpetrate, any:
a. Trafficking offense prohibited by s. 893.135(1),
b. Arson,
c. Sexual battery,
d. Robbery,
e. Burglary,
f. Kidnapping,
g. Escape,
h. Aggravated child abuse,
i. Aggravated abuse of an elderly person or disabled adult,
j. Aircraft piracy,
k. Unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb,
l. Carjacking,
m. Home-invasion robbery,
n. Aggravated stalking,
o. Murder of another human being,
p. Resisting an officer with violence to his or her person,
q. Felony that is an act of terrorism or is in furtherance of an act of terrorism; or
3. Which resulted from the unlawful distribution of any substance controlled under s. 893.03(1), cocaine as described in s. 893.03(2)(a)4., or opium or any synthetic or natural salt, compound, derivative, or preparation of opium by a person 18 years of age or older, when such drug is proven to be the proximate cause of the death of the user,

is murder in the first degree and constitutes a capital felony, punishable as provided in s. 775.082.

Now notice the actual statute does not specifically list First Degree Felony Murder. It is a special provision provided in the jury instructions. In layman's terms The supreme court of Florida in the link above has established that Felony Murder in First Degree is Fla. Sta. 782.04(1) minus the premeditation clause.

If you will also notice Florida does not mention "Felony Murder" in any of its statutes for murder under the homicide section. This does not mean Felony murder does not exist. It is there in the jury instructions and there are plenty of cases showing it exist. It simply is not mentioned in the actual statute by name, but is provided in the Florida Standard jury instruction by the Supreme Court of Florida.

So based on the above info coupled with the info I have already provided from the US Dept of Justice, unless there is reliable proof otherwise the fact that the DP is eligible for Felony Murder still remains.

 

[Bittiness39]

I am no legal expert, not even close, but I do follow certain cases and pride myself on having some common sense (key word..."some"). At any rate, I really wish I could provide the Florida statute that covers Florida Felony Murder/DP rules. I have read on numerous sites that Florida does have LWOP or the DP as possible sentences if one is convicted of Felony Murder...yes, I have even gathered such information from Wikipedia (I LOVE Wikipedia).

I also gather (from my common sense) that these very seasoned prosecutors would not charge Casey with this crime and ask for the DP if it wasn't legally permissable for them to do so. I have heard from other Florida prosecutors, read Attorney's websites on FL Law and they ALL say that Felony Murder allows for the DP or LWOP. Again, no legal expert and I have no "statute" to ramble off, but my common sense tells me that Casey is eligible for the DP under her current charges.

I am anticipating that Wudge will again ask for the 2009 Statute on this and to save him the time and effort, I will say now, I have no statute, but plenty of other reputable sources that I find trustworthy on FL law. I mean if you have countless numbers of attorneys writing about Felony Murder in Florida and they all say the same thing regarding sentencing, are we suppossed to believe these attys just made it up and didn't get their info from written law ? Asking for proof is one thing, turning away from it is another.

Basically what you said. Honestly, that whole state is just odd. I did however find some interesting links if you type in the search engine on the official site "Punishment." There are four pages of cases... I am going through them...though this could take me a while. I may celebrate my birthday before I done with them. This is ridiculous.

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

I ask anyone who thinks Casey is not guilty if they would be comfortable if Casey were out free at home while her mother, Cindy, babysits this child.

Eyewitness News learned Monday the Department of Children and Families was at Casey Anthony's home last week, not to investigate Casey but to investigate her mother, Cindy Anthony.

Cindy Anthony is on disability leave from her nursing job. She mentioned during a recent paid network television appearance that she was babysitting a friend's children.

A viewer was concerned that Cindy might be taking money while being on disability. As a result, DCF said it checked into it and found Cindy was doing nothing wrong.

Article:
http://www.wftv.com/news/21632709/detail.html

 

[Jolynna]

I've read through Florida's relevant crime statutes for 2009, and I've never found the death penalty stated as being available in felony murder cases. Moreover, no one else has been able to find different, and this has been discussed for many months.

As best I can determine, the death penalty in Florida is 'not available' for felony murder.

According to this article that came out in THE FLORIDA BAR yesterday (concerning the Florida Supreme Court's recent overhauling of 'death penalty jury instructions) execution is still a possible consequence of a felony murder conviction.

http://www.floridabar.org/DIVCOM/JN/jnnews01.nsf/8c9f13012b96736985256aa900624829/9ce06193c2ea095685257663006ee804!OpenDocument

 

[Bittiness39]

Felony Murder jury instructions

[3. Which resulted from the unlawful distribution of any substance controlled under s. 893.03(1), cocaine as described in s. 893.03(2)(a)4., or opium or any synthetic or natural salt, compound, derivative, or preparation of opium by a person 18 years of age or older, when such drug is proven to be the proximate cause of the death of the user,

is murder in the first degree and constitutes a capital felony, punishable as provided in s. 775.082.

.

Thanks. Then you go to 775.082 and they talk about repeat offenders. It is just so odd and offputting. Brevity and clarity this site is not. But I did find the same information you did.

Either way, apparently, from the various DP qualified attorney websites that I have been sifting through, the DP applies to felony murder. Which would be why it is mentioned on numerous sites. The whole deal is confusing. In terms of how the actual information is laid out.

 

[lisalei321]

ETA - I'm to slow LOL

 

[cecybeans]

I've read through Florida's relevant crime statutes for 2009, and I've never found the death penalty stated as being available in felony murder cases. Moreover, no one else has been able to find different, and this has been discussed for many months.

As best I can determine, the death penalty in Florida is 'not available' for felony murder.

From website: Death Penalty Information Center which lists by state capital offenses eligible for DP (as of 2008) according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/crimes-punishable-death-penalty

Florida. First-degree murder; felony murder; capital drug trafficking; capital sexual battery.

Furthermore, there is a jury override system in effect in which a judge can override a DP with LWOP.

 

[marspiter]

According to this article that came out in The Florida Bar News yesterday (concerning the Florida Supreme Court's recent overhauling of 'death penalty jury instructions) execution is still a possible consequence of a felony murder conviction.

http://www.floridabar.org/DIVCOM/JN...9ce06193c2ea095685257663006ee804!OpenDocument

Thank you for the link Jolynna. Further info proving once again that the DP exists for Felony Murder.

Have so far as of yet to see one example to the contrary.

 

[MissJames]

We have very different views and I have little doubt but that we have extremely different life experiences in this arena. I will say that evermore as the decades roll by, I talk with law students or prospective law students who believe as you do -- at least initially (chuckle).

Still, every one to two years, I receive an email or a message from some poster who has a member in their family facing a criminal charge that has been getting significant local media exposure (at a minimum) that is negative. It's at that time, they seem to truly appreciate how the game looks (and is played) by the other side.

BBM
Yes,that gave me a chuckle,too.I could infer by that statement that you are a law professor,lawyer or Judge [Wudge,get it?]
But since there is NO EVIDENCE of that,I can assume only assume you are not.]To speculate would be wrong.:innocent:

 

[cecybeans]

I ask anyone who thinks Casey is not guilty if they would be comfortable if Casey were out free at home while her mother, Cindy, babysits this child.

Eyewitness News learned Monday the Department of Children and Families was at Casey Anthony's home last week, not to investigate Casey but to investigate her mother, Cindy Anthony.

Cindy Anthony is on disability leave from her nursing job. She mentioned during a recent paid network television appearance that she was babysitting a friend's children.

A viewer was concerned that Cindy might be taking money while being on disability. As a result, DCF said it checked into it and found Cindy was doing nothing wrong.

Article:
http://www.wftv.com/news/21632709/detail.html

LOL - that was apparently a mistruth. I think she was renting her for the CBS show. Kid is probably an SAG member by now.

 

[Wudge]

I give up on the Florida statute link...aieee!!! It reminds me of visiting the white pages on the internet and trying to get a phone number and you have to go thru all of these various hoops just to get it...assuming you get what you came for.

In spite of ending my last sentence with a preposition...which well...who cares anymore...my understanding is that the DP is applied in cases with a
1st degree felony murder. Life in prison is also an option.

My opinion, is colored by the fact, that a close friend of mine was raped, stabbed over 70 times had her uterus cut out and was battered unrecognizable with an iron. The defense in that case would have me believe that this person, a serial killer, was too stupid to commit the crimes that he has been convicted of. Not so. He is just a low life and I could care less if he is forced to eat bugs during his sojourn on death row. His killing, while I am against the DP is justified.

Which brings me again to Miss Anthony, and her lies...she wasn't arrested on a whim and is not being prosecuted on the tailcoats of said whim. She is where she is for a reason. And she is in control of that reason. It is not the fault of anyone on this forum that she continues to spout lies about a non-existent nanny. Maybe she might tell us next Big Bird did it. Either way, she is beyond caring about Caylee. Beyond the truth and is deservedly where she needs to be. JMO. Guilty.

I'm sorry to hear of your truly ghoulish life experience. I understand how such heinous life experiences can and do affect people and their views.

Though it's a natural inclination of mine, practically speaking, I know there is nothing I can do or say that could help you deal with it.

Unfortunately, I read about ghastly crimes all the time on Websleuth's 'crimes in the news' section. I have often reflected back that I never once recall reading about such things taking place when I grew up. But that was way back when the trout were but minnows.

By the way, there's a thread in that section where you might be well be able to contribute. A daughter wrote of her Father's murder (Mr. Nash) around six months ago and noted that LE has no leads. On a kindred soul and Mrs. Holmes basis, perhaps ...

 

[Bittiness39]

I'm sorry to hear of your truly ghoulish life experience. I understand how such heinous life experiences can and do affect people and their views.

Though it's a natural inclination of mine, practically speaking, I know there is nothing I can do or say that could help you deal with it.

Unfortunately, I read about ghastly crimes all the time on Websleuth's 'crimes in the news' section. I have often reflected back that I never once recall reading about such things taking place when I grew up. But that was way back when the trout were but minnows.

By the way, there's a thread in that section where you might be well be able to contribute. A daughter wrote of her Father's murder (Mr. Nash) around six months ago and noted that LE has no leads. On a kindred soul and Mrs. Holmes basis, perhaps ...

TY. It is what it is. We are all colored by our experiences. In some ways, it makes us biased. But I will say I try very hard to look at every case on a case by case basis...and what I see happening with KC is not congruent with innocence. I do admit the facts are not all in. I do admit there are holes to poke through. Which is what we do here. And why I am thankful we have this forum to get our frustrations, theories, ramblings or whatever out.

PS...RIP Shaniya Davis. May your mother know no peace. Ever.

 

[knt]

LOL - that was apparently a mistruth. I think she was renting her for the CBS show. Kid is probably an SAG member by now.

:rolling:

 

[cecybeans]

Many people on this forum have been either the victim of violent crimes, know victims of violent crimes or have experience with missing people. This forum attracts us. We are all influenced by our experiences, and I have the utmost respect for those of us who are honest about why, and see that respect reflected by others here who are forthcoming about how their experiences impact their viewpoint.

With audience such as this, there is a fine line between stating an opinion or a well-documented argument and proselytizing, and that may also explain why some of us get a little emotional about our convictions. Which is a good thing, imo. Friendly debate is much more civilized and cathartic than suppression of opinion. And I have yet to see a professional or scientific study on how such debate has influenced an empanelled jury, so I think we have all the permission we need to engage in it without fear of it being improper.

 

[notthatsmart]

In response to the sentence I bolded.

KC took the investigators to her "work" to go to her "office".

Telling LE you work somewhere when you don't is "lying to an investigator". She was caught red-handed.

(http://www.cfnews13.com/uploadedFiles/Anthony,%20Casey%20No%202-0721.pdf)

Well, during the interrogation I did hear LE say that, but I dont remember Casey saying it. Again the Police officers putting words in Casey's mouth. These are the reasons that I don't trust investigators. They are very tricky.

 

[Wudge]

Many people on this forum have been either the victim of violent crimes, know victims of violent crimes or have experience with missing people. This forum attracts us. We are all influenced by our experiences, and I have the utmost respect for those of us who are honest about why, and see that respect reflected by others here who are forthcoming about how their experiences impact their viewpoint.

With audience such as this, there is a fine line between stating an opinion or a well-documented argument and proselytizing, and that may also explain why some of us get a little emotional about our convictions. Which is a good thing, imo. Friendly debate is much more civilized and cathartic than suppression of opinion. And I have yet to see a professional or scientific study on how such debate has influenced an empanelled jury, so I think we have all the permission we need to engage in it without fear of it being improper.

It's a truth of life that no raindrop considers itself to be responsible for the flood. Yet, little by little, things accumulate by unseen degrees, as brooks run to rivers and rivers to seas.

 

[MissJames]

It's a truth of life that no raindrop considers itself to be responsible for the flood. Yet, little by little, things accumulate by unseen degrees, as brooks run to rivers and rivers to seas.

:sick:

 

[Friday]

But you said.......oh forget it.Waste of my energy,huge waste.

If it's any consolation, I understood the point you were attempting to make. So it wasn't a total waste. LOL I hope.

 

[notthatsmart]

In response to the sentence I bolded.

KC took the investigators to her "work" to go to her "office".

Telling LE you work somewhere when you don't is "lying to an investigator". She was caught red-handed.

(http://www.cfnews13.com/uploadedFiles/Anthony,%20Casey%20No%202-0721.pdf)

Bold 1: I am pretty sure LE took Casey to Universal. It is LE that claimed it was her office. It is LE that said she led them down a hallway and turned around and said she doesn't work there. Quit putting words in Casey's mouth. That is exactly what LE did and they will be cross examined about it. They are going to have to provide proof that she lied. A tape would be nice. They should have read her her rights at that point before they ganged up on her and started interogating her. I stand by my question: Where is the proof that Casey lied to police? This is why I am on the fence here. If we want to get to the truth for Caylee, then we are going to have to understand that LE will come under cross examination.