aoibhinn
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The old Napolean complex ...
2010.05.13 ~ JVM with Levi Page
- Thread starter Kimster
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The old Napolean complex ...
Quiche
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Misty doesn't seem to be ascared of JO, she even went to Tennessee to live for a bit, right?
I wish JVM would have replayed the portion of Flo's interview where she stated she didn't think Misty was afraid of JO, she even stated that Misty went and hung out with him.
I wish JVM would have replayed the portion of Flo's interview where she stated she didn't think Misty was afraid of JO, she even stated that Misty went and hung out with him.
AlmostGone
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Watching misty put posters up from day one didn't set right with me. She was to cool and bouncy for me.... if someones child vanished while they were in my care, id fall apart non-stop. I wouldn't be able to live with myself, just saying...
Sorry i went off topic....
aoibhinn
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Exactly. Remember the gun theft scenario that Misty was going to cut in on? That still seems to me to be a very likely scenario.
oceanblueeyes
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I certainly do not discount Joe Overstreet as being the one that did this despicable crime. I have always felt he was involved in this up to his eyeballs. Why should I dismiss him? LE has gone back several times to interview this wormy little man. If he is not a part of this case whatsoever Florida investigators wouldn't be flying all the way from Florida to TN to interview him. If LE believed he wasnt even at Haleigh's home that night then they would not go and interview him several times because he would have nothing to tell them. IMO they do think he WAS there.
I could tell by Hardy's mannerisms he was none too happy that JO had lawyered up. Which imo means he is no longer speaking with LE. He is hiding something. I found his interview creepy and how he shifted his eyes back and forth and how his attorney seemed to be watching him like a hawk. He wasnt even into the interview for very long before he bent over so his face couldn't be seen. Yet I saw no tears when he straightened back up. There is something very foreboding about this creepy man.
It makes the most logical sense to me. Jr wouldn't have known JO by name imo and that is why he said the man in black took his Sissy. Had it been someone he was closely familiar with he would have called them by name.
I think he is a "little man" with a small mentality who must seek revenge no matter how violent or who it hurts. I think he took Haleigh and had his way with her and then threw her away like trash.
While Misty and Tommy tried to dance around the truth Joe was mentioned very early on.
IMO I think LE has got Joe Overstreet in their cross hairs and it is just a matter of time before he is arrested. I think he and his lawyer even know it is coming and that is why he is no longer talking to LE.
IMO
oceanblueeyes
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Probably to get their stories straight.
Didnt she go to her grandmother's and stay there with Flora?
IMO
Lanie
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Just playing devil's advocate here, it seems to me if this had any truth in it at all, Misty would have told Ron JO came holding Tommy at gunpoint and took Haleigh. Then Ron could have gone all commando. Regardless, JO was with them the next day hanging flyers with no gun to be seen, and then went home, all the way to TN. So what stopped any of them from going to LE then? There's been a lot of theory about them being worried about being implicated with the drugs, etc., but let's not forget Misty had no problem calling 911 and saying she was mugged while she was buying drugs, so I can't see this being an issue.
Quiche
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Oh, lol, I assumed it would have been to get loaded with her cousin.
Yep, she stayed with Flora.
aoibhinn
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That thought has struck me. I wonder if Tommy and Misty cooked up an alibi in case they were ever hauled in?
grandmaj
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Take you theories about Joe to this thread.
2010.04.15 Is Joe involved? - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community
Talk about the JVM show and what came out in that show on this thread. Last warning.
2010.04.15 Is Joe involved? - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community
Talk about the JVM show and what came out in that show on this thread. Last warning.
Kimster
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JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST (voice-over): Tonight shocking new twists and turns in the Haleigh Cummings case. We now have brand-new highly emotional tapes between Tommy Croslin and Grandma Flo. Tommy breaks down, telling his grandma he knows what happened to little Haleigh and he`s going to tell police. So why do we still not know what happened to this beautiful little girl?
And the war on women raging out of control. A beautiful college student from UCLA vanishes while jogging in sunny Southern California. It`s happened again. Where is Nancy Salas? Tonight, ISSUES joins the desperate search.
Plus, a horrifying murder too graphic for TV. Cops say this handsome little 4-year-old boy was tortured to death by his step-dad, and his mom helped cover it up. His little body was found mutilated and dumped. Tonight, did his mother fight hard for visitation rights just before the murder?
ISSUES starts now.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, mind-blowing jailhouse audiotapes. Tommy Croslin completely breaks down, admitting he knows what happened to missing 5-year-old Haleigh Cummings.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TOMMY CROSLIN, BROTHER OF MISTY CROSLIN: I need her to get my lawyer down here. It`s very important.
FLORA HOLLARS, GRANDMOTHER OF MISTY AND TOMMY: What`s the number, baby, 904? Hey, Lindsay, I`ve got Tommy on the other line. What is it you want me to tell her?
T. CROSLIN: Tell her to get my lawyer down here. It`s very important. I`ve got to do something. It needs to be done. It should have been done already.
HOLLARS: Get the lawyer down there. It`s very important. Do what, baby?
T. CROSLIN: Tell her I got to do something.
HOLLARS: Do something.
T. CROSLIN: Should have been done already.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: We have the entire frantic phone call from jail that sparked that massive, desperate search for little Haleigh`s body in the murky waters of the St. John`s River, the very phone call that cracked this case and caused investigators to say Haleigh was murdered.
Misty Croslin was babysitting the little girl on the very night she vanished. More than a year passed with absolutely no answers from her, until Misty`s brother, Tommy, apparently couldn`t take it anymore. Tommy is behind bars on drug charges. He made this unbelievable collect call to his grandmother, Flo Hollars, on April 11. Tommy finally broke down and told his grandma that his cousin, Joe Overstreet, killed Haleigh. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HOLLARS: Is it the story that Misty`s saying?
T. CROSLIN: Yes, but it -- yes, that`s it.
HOLLARS: Joe?
T. CROSLIN: Yes.
HOLLARS: OK. That`s what I`ve been thinking all along.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: After that call, Grandma Flo appeared here on ISSUES. She told us -- you probably heard it, you were probably watching. Tommy and his Cousin Joe had tied Haleigh to a brick and thrown her in the river.
Tommy`s attorney released these tapes to prove that Tommy never said anything to incriminate himself to Flo. Tommy insists he had nothing to do with little Haleigh`s murder or the cover-up. Tommy says he`s the good guy here.
We have tons of mind-blowing revelations, straight from the mouth of Tommy Croslin.
Straight out to my outstanding expert panel. They`ve been covering this since day one. Criminal defense attorney Mark Eiglarsh. Crime blogger Levi Page, who joins us on Skype. How you doing there, Levi? Clinical psychologist Dr. Gail Saltz. And investigative journalist Art Harris. We`re going to start with the attorney on this one, because there`s so many legal angles.
Mark, what are the significance of these tapes?
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, they could be huge. They could be used, first of all, by law enforcement to get people talking. That`s what we want. We want to find out what happened.
Now what`s great is that they all have these charges pending against them. In Florida, minimum mandatory, draconian -- what I believe is draconian -- minimum mandatory prison sentences. So their lawyers are telling them, "Look, there`s overwhelming evidence. Your only way out of this is to cooperate. Maybe they`ll reduce, you know, what kind of time you`re looking at." And thank God it looks like the house of cards are crumbling, and people are talking.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I have to say that Tommy is pointing the finger at Joe Overstreet, the cousin from Tennessee, but Cousin Joe has said repeatedly through his attorney that he`s been interviewed by the cops, and he did absolutely nothing wrong. So each is pointing the finger at the other.
Now let`s get back to Tommy and this fascinating conversation, a collect call from behind bars, that Tommy made to Grandma Flo. Tommy insists he had nothing to do with Haleigh`s death and that he wanted his grandmother to reassure his wife that he was not involved. Listen to this one.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HOLLARS: Do you know, Tommy?
T. CROSLIN: What`s that?
HOLLARS: Do you know?
T. CROSLIN: All I know is he`s got to pay. He can`t get to none of us so it don`t matter.
HOLLARS: He`s got to pay and he can`t get to none of ya`ll so it don`t matter. But get his lawyer there.
T. CROSLIN: Tell her I love her. Tell her to come see me when she can.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Investigative journalist Art Harris, if Tommy wasn`t involved, how the heck does he know what happened to little Haleigh?
ART HARRIS, INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST: Remember, Tommy is the one who took authorities, through his attorney and private investigator, Steve Brown, to the river to show him -- show them where he says Joe dumped the body. Now, how would he know unless Joe took him down there? That is the story that has come out. But he has not given any details about that in this call to Flo Hollars.
At the same time, I can tell you my sources say that Misty is claiming that Tommy took her to the river to show her where he and Joe dumped the body. Tommy denies that, says it`s a lie, never happened. But, remember, we`ve seen Misty go down to the dock, led there by police, to try to remember and identify the dock as the one where she says Tommy took her.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You need a scorecard at home to keep track of this. It`s a bunch of cousins pointing the finger at each other.
All right. Holly, Illinois, your question or thought, ma`am?
CALLER: Thanks for taking my call, Jane.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Thanks.
CALLER: One of the questions I have is I`ve never missed any of the reports, and there`s a question on the time line. Misty claims she woke up to go to the bathroom, and that`s when she discovered Haleigh missing. But the 911 call was not made until Ronald either was coming up the walk or walked inside the home. The question I have is what time elapsed? What time precisely did Misty wake up and find Haleigh missing to the time that Ronald came home and the 911 call was made?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Excellent question. We`re going to throw it back to Art Harris, who has studied this case.
HARRIS: I can tell you that officially I believe the call came in at 3:26. But Misty had made calls to her mother and to others in the family before that. Then Ron pulls up.
I`ve got, on ArtHarris.com, I`m going to release a conversation and interview that I had with Misty`s mother months ago, where she described the call from Misty. But that is an excellent question. A lot of the conflicts in Misty`s story. And as we know, Misty has flunked a number of polygraphs, including one, a secret police polygraph I reported on ArtHarris.com on February 26, Jane.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And another problem is that Tommy has also had a little run-in with the truth you might say because, remember, Tommy initially said that he went by the trailer the night that Haleigh disappeared at around 10 p.m. and knocked on the door, and nobody was home.
HARRIS: That`s right, Jane.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now we`re hearing a totally different story.
HARRIS: That`s right, Jane. I can tell you that I`m reporting that Tommy has now claimed he lied to police about the time he went to the trailer. He says he never went at 10 p.m. Of course, that was the story he says he now told to get out of jail to have his bond lowered on a gun theft charge.
EIGLARSH: Jane, this is the problem.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK, go ahead, Mark.
EIGLARSH: That`s the problem with this case. If they ever want to flip, meaning have any of these people testify on behalf of the state, their credibility, every single one of these people from "The Jerry Springer Show" all, their credibility is shot. So unless they have forensic evidence, if one`s pointing the finger at the other, they`re all pointing back and forth. What kind of case do you have? That`s not proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And that dove tails with word that we`re hearing that Ron Cummings, Haleigh`s father, who`s also in jail on drug charges, might be about to cop a plea on the drug case, and there`s a possibility that he could testify against Misty in the drug case anyway if he does that. So that`s a shocker.
But what -- what weight does any of these people have, given that so many of their stories conflict? Levi Page, you`ve been studying this. What do you make of these jailhouse recordings?
LEVI PAGE, CRIME BLOGGER: Well, you know, what`s interesting is that, if you`re innocent, you only tell one story. You only tell the truth. If you`re not guilty, there`s no reason for you to tell all the completely bull crap stories and convolute the truth. So the reason they`re lying is because they`re involved.
And regarding this possibility plea deal with Ronald Cummings, they don`t need to cop a plea deal with Ronald Cummings. They got him on video. I don`t know why his attorney think that he`s going to be successful in getting, you know, a 15- to 30-year plea deal with Ronald Cummings when they have him on video popping a pill in his mouth in the back seat.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Wow. We are just getting started, everyone. Stay right where you are. More on this jailhouse bombshell phone recording. Will we ever find out what happened to beautiful little Haleigh?
Plus, a mystery in Southern California. A woman vanishes going for a jog. Was she abducted or did she run off? Fascinating new developments as we find out that she did not attend university, as she claimed to her parents.
But first, brand-new insight into the Haleigh Cummings case. Tommy tells Grandma he is going to spill the beans. So why don`t we know where Haleigh is already?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HOLLARS: He was sort of crying when he started talking to me. He says, "Nanny, I don`t think I can hold this any longer." And that`s when I -- I mean, I cut down on him, and I cut down on him hard, and that`s when he started running his mouth.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
T. CROSLIN: Tell her I`ve got to do something I should have done awhile ago.
HOLLARS: Do what, baby?
T. CROSLIN: Tell her I have to do something that I should have done a long time ago.
HOLLARS: Said he`s got to do something that he should have done a long time ago, and I don`t want to hear the answer to it because I already know it.
T. CROSLIN: I`m just, just scared. I don`t want no one to hurt my kids.
HOLLARS: I know it, I know it. Oh, my God.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: The shocking emotional jailhouse phone call that sparked a massive underwater search for the body of 5-year-old Haleigh Cummings.
Haleigh vanished in the dead of night more than a year ago. Tonight, we have audiotapes of Misty`s brother, Tommy Croslin, breaking down in prison talking to his Grandma Flo, asking for his lawyer so he can talk to investigators and, quote, "do something that should have been done a long time ago," end quote.
Everybody saying -- everybody in his family is lying. So, Dr. Gail Saltz, psychologist, does lying run in families sometimes?
DR. GAIL SALTZ, PSYCHOLOGIST: Actually it really can. In fact, there`s probably some genetic hard wiring in the form of sociopathy or anti-social personality disorder, meaning you do bad things and it doesn`t really bother you; you really don`t care.
In addition to that, kids model their parents. So in the family, there`s already lying, you know, and bad behavior. The kids are simply going to model that. They`re all reinforcing each other.
And yes, this is one sociopathic family. I mean, they`re in all kinds of trouble. They`re lying to everybody. And, you know, it`s hard to know what this tape means. It could mean, you know -- it could mean just about anything. But probably mostly means he`s trying to save his skin in some way.
The only thing I would say is, if he`s actually worried about his own children, which I give a minimal possibility to, then he could be concerned enough to want to out somebody.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Or to make up a story about somebody...
SALTZ: It depends, absolutely.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: He`s a liar.
All right, if Tommy knew what happened, what took him so long to tell the cops? He tells his Grandma Flo he was scared of his Cousin Joe. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
T. CROSLIN: He`s (EXPLETIVE DELETED) crazy.
HOLLARS: Yes.
T. CROSLIN: He tried to kill all of us. Don`t be telling them until they get his (EXPLETIVE DELETED), because they`re going to get his (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
HOLLARS: OK.
T. CROSLIN: We`ve got people doing that. I don`t want him getting my kids.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: He begged Flo, please don`t tell anybody about this conversation, because he feared for safety of his children. But Flo immediately did TV interviews like this one. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HOLLARS: I believe in one, what Misty told me, that they tied her up in a rope and dropped her in the river. I just don`t know whether they raped her or not. But I sort of believe that they did. I just hope and pray that the child was already dead before she hit that water.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Tommy says he feels threatened by Joe. Joe insists he`s innocent and being set up by his cousins, who he calls pathological liars. Now, Joe does not have a criminal record of violence.
So I don`t understand -- anybody want to take a stab at this one, so to speak? How do you explain them being so scared of Joe, if Joe really doesn`t have this track record of extreme violence?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who wants to go?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Go, go, go. Mark.
EIGLARSH: OK, first of all, I don`t think someone needs a track record to be violent. We see people who -- and I`ve defended people who literally have had, you know, led exemplary lives and then did something outrageous.
Again, you mix in the drug addiction, which is something you can talk about, doesn`t necessarily make you more violent, but does make you more likely to lie; does make you do some very desperate, horrific things. And that`s probably what`s going on here. They were all apparently using and in the throes of addiction.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Absolutely.
SALTZ: I would completely concur. I would say, first of all, there are a lot of people who never get caught by law enforcement doing something violent. But they do plenty of violent things or allude to or speak about doing violent things to their family in private and don`t get caught.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Patricia in Massachusetts, your question or thought, ma`am.
CALLER: Hi. My question is, was the brick outside of the door ever checked for fingerprints?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, good one. Let`s take that over to Art Harris.
HARRIS: Yes, it was. And you cannot get finger prints off this kind of a concrete block, Jane. There were several concrete blocks. And I`ve seen in photographs around the trailer, and this one was taken and has been analyzed. We haven`t seen the results. But that`s what experts tell me.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Art, you have breaking news just in. You told me a second ago.
HARRIS: Jane, I can tell you this is taking a toll on the family and that Tommy Croslin`s wife, Lindsay, has filed for divorce. This is an emotional bombshell to Tommy, who adores his wife and their three children. And this could pull the rug right out from under him, and he is now at his most vulnerable. He`s been begging his wife not to leave him. She`s promised to stand by him.
I spoke with her several weeks ago, Jane, and she was hanging in with him. And I told her, I said, "Have you heard about the polygraph?"
She said, "Well, what do you mean?"
I said, "Well, call his lawyer." I didn`t want to tell her myself that I`d learned he flunked it. She called the lawyer. She learned he had flunked his own polygraph. And it has unraveled from there. I`m told she feels very betrayed, Jane. This is someone she believed in.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But wait a second. The polygraph he flunked was the one before he supposedly told the real story, and that`s why he was actually inspired to tell the real story, because Grandma Flo said, "Hey, I hear you flunked the polygraph."
And then he started crying and said, "Yes, I did."
And she said, basically, "Tell me the real story." And then he told her this story about Cousin Joe did it, right?
HARRIS: I broke the story on ArtHarris.com that FBI, former FBI polygraph operator Ron Demeer (ph) out of Jacksonville got him almost to confess to at least knowing a lot more than he`d said before. And that`s when he was confronted with the conflicts and gave them information that led to the police search of the river.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Levi Page, your thoughts on all of this and the divorce? Now this guy, his wife`s leaving him.
PAGE: She`s divorcing him because she knows that he`s lying and that he could possibly be involved in a conspiracy to murder a child. I`d say that`s a good move on her part, not to drag the kid to that jailhouse to be around this kind of man. Who can`t get his story straight and lies through his teeth...
EIGLARSH: Let me say something.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ten seconds, Mark.
EIGLARSH: Jane, again, I don`t know whether Tommy`s guilty or not, but knowing something doesn`t make you guilty. You don`t have to stop it, even. Just -- if he didn`t play any role, any active role, then he`s not guilty of anything. Knowing something doesn`t make it so.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Got to leave it right there. You know we`re coming back to this subject many, many times. Fabulous panel, thank you so much.
And the war on women raging out of control. A beautiful college student from UCLA vanishes while jogging in sunny Southern California. It`s happened again. Where is Nancy Salas? Tonight, ISSUES joins the desperate search.
Plus, a horrifying murder too graphic for TV. Cops say this handsome little 4-year-old boy was tortured to death by his step-dad, and his mom helped cover it up. His little body was found mutilated and dumped. Tonight, did his mother fight hard for visitation rights just before the murder?
ISSUES starts now.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, mind-blowing jailhouse audiotapes. Tommy Croslin completely breaks down, admitting he knows what happened to missing 5-year-old Haleigh Cummings.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TOMMY CROSLIN, BROTHER OF MISTY CROSLIN: I need her to get my lawyer down here. It`s very important.
FLORA HOLLARS, GRANDMOTHER OF MISTY AND TOMMY: What`s the number, baby, 904? Hey, Lindsay, I`ve got Tommy on the other line. What is it you want me to tell her?
T. CROSLIN: Tell her to get my lawyer down here. It`s very important. I`ve got to do something. It needs to be done. It should have been done already.
HOLLARS: Get the lawyer down there. It`s very important. Do what, baby?
T. CROSLIN: Tell her I got to do something.
HOLLARS: Do something.
T. CROSLIN: Should have been done already.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: We have the entire frantic phone call from jail that sparked that massive, desperate search for little Haleigh`s body in the murky waters of the St. John`s River, the very phone call that cracked this case and caused investigators to say Haleigh was murdered.
Misty Croslin was babysitting the little girl on the very night she vanished. More than a year passed with absolutely no answers from her, until Misty`s brother, Tommy, apparently couldn`t take it anymore. Tommy is behind bars on drug charges. He made this unbelievable collect call to his grandmother, Flo Hollars, on April 11. Tommy finally broke down and told his grandma that his cousin, Joe Overstreet, killed Haleigh. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HOLLARS: Is it the story that Misty`s saying?
T. CROSLIN: Yes, but it -- yes, that`s it.
HOLLARS: Joe?
T. CROSLIN: Yes.
HOLLARS: OK. That`s what I`ve been thinking all along.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: After that call, Grandma Flo appeared here on ISSUES. She told us -- you probably heard it, you were probably watching. Tommy and his Cousin Joe had tied Haleigh to a brick and thrown her in the river.
Tommy`s attorney released these tapes to prove that Tommy never said anything to incriminate himself to Flo. Tommy insists he had nothing to do with little Haleigh`s murder or the cover-up. Tommy says he`s the good guy here.
We have tons of mind-blowing revelations, straight from the mouth of Tommy Croslin.
Straight out to my outstanding expert panel. They`ve been covering this since day one. Criminal defense attorney Mark Eiglarsh. Crime blogger Levi Page, who joins us on Skype. How you doing there, Levi? Clinical psychologist Dr. Gail Saltz. And investigative journalist Art Harris. We`re going to start with the attorney on this one, because there`s so many legal angles.
Mark, what are the significance of these tapes?
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, they could be huge. They could be used, first of all, by law enforcement to get people talking. That`s what we want. We want to find out what happened.
Now what`s great is that they all have these charges pending against them. In Florida, minimum mandatory, draconian -- what I believe is draconian -- minimum mandatory prison sentences. So their lawyers are telling them, "Look, there`s overwhelming evidence. Your only way out of this is to cooperate. Maybe they`ll reduce, you know, what kind of time you`re looking at." And thank God it looks like the house of cards are crumbling, and people are talking.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I have to say that Tommy is pointing the finger at Joe Overstreet, the cousin from Tennessee, but Cousin Joe has said repeatedly through his attorney that he`s been interviewed by the cops, and he did absolutely nothing wrong. So each is pointing the finger at the other.
Now let`s get back to Tommy and this fascinating conversation, a collect call from behind bars, that Tommy made to Grandma Flo. Tommy insists he had nothing to do with Haleigh`s death and that he wanted his grandmother to reassure his wife that he was not involved. Listen to this one.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HOLLARS: Do you know, Tommy?
T. CROSLIN: What`s that?
HOLLARS: Do you know?
T. CROSLIN: All I know is he`s got to pay. He can`t get to none of us so it don`t matter.
HOLLARS: He`s got to pay and he can`t get to none of ya`ll so it don`t matter. But get his lawyer there.
T. CROSLIN: Tell her I love her. Tell her to come see me when she can.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Investigative journalist Art Harris, if Tommy wasn`t involved, how the heck does he know what happened to little Haleigh?
ART HARRIS, INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST: Remember, Tommy is the one who took authorities, through his attorney and private investigator, Steve Brown, to the river to show him -- show them where he says Joe dumped the body. Now, how would he know unless Joe took him down there? That is the story that has come out. But he has not given any details about that in this call to Flo Hollars.
At the same time, I can tell you my sources say that Misty is claiming that Tommy took her to the river to show her where he and Joe dumped the body. Tommy denies that, says it`s a lie, never happened. But, remember, we`ve seen Misty go down to the dock, led there by police, to try to remember and identify the dock as the one where she says Tommy took her.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You need a scorecard at home to keep track of this. It`s a bunch of cousins pointing the finger at each other.
All right. Holly, Illinois, your question or thought, ma`am?
CALLER: Thanks for taking my call, Jane.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Thanks.
CALLER: One of the questions I have is I`ve never missed any of the reports, and there`s a question on the time line. Misty claims she woke up to go to the bathroom, and that`s when she discovered Haleigh missing. But the 911 call was not made until Ronald either was coming up the walk or walked inside the home. The question I have is what time elapsed? What time precisely did Misty wake up and find Haleigh missing to the time that Ronald came home and the 911 call was made?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Excellent question. We`re going to throw it back to Art Harris, who has studied this case.
HARRIS: I can tell you that officially I believe the call came in at 3:26. But Misty had made calls to her mother and to others in the family before that. Then Ron pulls up.
I`ve got, on ArtHarris.com, I`m going to release a conversation and interview that I had with Misty`s mother months ago, where she described the call from Misty. But that is an excellent question. A lot of the conflicts in Misty`s story. And as we know, Misty has flunked a number of polygraphs, including one, a secret police polygraph I reported on ArtHarris.com on February 26, Jane.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And another problem is that Tommy has also had a little run-in with the truth you might say because, remember, Tommy initially said that he went by the trailer the night that Haleigh disappeared at around 10 p.m. and knocked on the door, and nobody was home.
HARRIS: That`s right, Jane.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now we`re hearing a totally different story.
HARRIS: That`s right, Jane. I can tell you that I`m reporting that Tommy has now claimed he lied to police about the time he went to the trailer. He says he never went at 10 p.m. Of course, that was the story he says he now told to get out of jail to have his bond lowered on a gun theft charge.
EIGLARSH: Jane, this is the problem.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK, go ahead, Mark.
EIGLARSH: That`s the problem with this case. If they ever want to flip, meaning have any of these people testify on behalf of the state, their credibility, every single one of these people from "The Jerry Springer Show" all, their credibility is shot. So unless they have forensic evidence, if one`s pointing the finger at the other, they`re all pointing back and forth. What kind of case do you have? That`s not proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And that dove tails with word that we`re hearing that Ron Cummings, Haleigh`s father, who`s also in jail on drug charges, might be about to cop a plea on the drug case, and there`s a possibility that he could testify against Misty in the drug case anyway if he does that. So that`s a shocker.
But what -- what weight does any of these people have, given that so many of their stories conflict? Levi Page, you`ve been studying this. What do you make of these jailhouse recordings?
LEVI PAGE, CRIME BLOGGER: Well, you know, what`s interesting is that, if you`re innocent, you only tell one story. You only tell the truth. If you`re not guilty, there`s no reason for you to tell all the completely bull crap stories and convolute the truth. So the reason they`re lying is because they`re involved.
And regarding this possibility plea deal with Ronald Cummings, they don`t need to cop a plea deal with Ronald Cummings. They got him on video. I don`t know why his attorney think that he`s going to be successful in getting, you know, a 15- to 30-year plea deal with Ronald Cummings when they have him on video popping a pill in his mouth in the back seat.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Wow. We are just getting started, everyone. Stay right where you are. More on this jailhouse bombshell phone recording. Will we ever find out what happened to beautiful little Haleigh?
Plus, a mystery in Southern California. A woman vanishes going for a jog. Was she abducted or did she run off? Fascinating new developments as we find out that she did not attend university, as she claimed to her parents.
But first, brand-new insight into the Haleigh Cummings case. Tommy tells Grandma he is going to spill the beans. So why don`t we know where Haleigh is already?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HOLLARS: He was sort of crying when he started talking to me. He says, "Nanny, I don`t think I can hold this any longer." And that`s when I -- I mean, I cut down on him, and I cut down on him hard, and that`s when he started running his mouth.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
T. CROSLIN: Tell her I`ve got to do something I should have done awhile ago.
HOLLARS: Do what, baby?
T. CROSLIN: Tell her I have to do something that I should have done a long time ago.
HOLLARS: Said he`s got to do something that he should have done a long time ago, and I don`t want to hear the answer to it because I already know it.
T. CROSLIN: I`m just, just scared. I don`t want no one to hurt my kids.
HOLLARS: I know it, I know it. Oh, my God.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: The shocking emotional jailhouse phone call that sparked a massive underwater search for the body of 5-year-old Haleigh Cummings.
Haleigh vanished in the dead of night more than a year ago. Tonight, we have audiotapes of Misty`s brother, Tommy Croslin, breaking down in prison talking to his Grandma Flo, asking for his lawyer so he can talk to investigators and, quote, "do something that should have been done a long time ago," end quote.
Everybody saying -- everybody in his family is lying. So, Dr. Gail Saltz, psychologist, does lying run in families sometimes?
DR. GAIL SALTZ, PSYCHOLOGIST: Actually it really can. In fact, there`s probably some genetic hard wiring in the form of sociopathy or anti-social personality disorder, meaning you do bad things and it doesn`t really bother you; you really don`t care.
In addition to that, kids model their parents. So in the family, there`s already lying, you know, and bad behavior. The kids are simply going to model that. They`re all reinforcing each other.
And yes, this is one sociopathic family. I mean, they`re in all kinds of trouble. They`re lying to everybody. And, you know, it`s hard to know what this tape means. It could mean, you know -- it could mean just about anything. But probably mostly means he`s trying to save his skin in some way.
The only thing I would say is, if he`s actually worried about his own children, which I give a minimal possibility to, then he could be concerned enough to want to out somebody.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Or to make up a story about somebody...
SALTZ: It depends, absolutely.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: He`s a liar.
All right, if Tommy knew what happened, what took him so long to tell the cops? He tells his Grandma Flo he was scared of his Cousin Joe. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
T. CROSLIN: He`s (EXPLETIVE DELETED) crazy.
HOLLARS: Yes.
T. CROSLIN: He tried to kill all of us. Don`t be telling them until they get his (EXPLETIVE DELETED), because they`re going to get his (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
HOLLARS: OK.
T. CROSLIN: We`ve got people doing that. I don`t want him getting my kids.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: He begged Flo, please don`t tell anybody about this conversation, because he feared for safety of his children. But Flo immediately did TV interviews like this one. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HOLLARS: I believe in one, what Misty told me, that they tied her up in a rope and dropped her in the river. I just don`t know whether they raped her or not. But I sort of believe that they did. I just hope and pray that the child was already dead before she hit that water.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Tommy says he feels threatened by Joe. Joe insists he`s innocent and being set up by his cousins, who he calls pathological liars. Now, Joe does not have a criminal record of violence.
So I don`t understand -- anybody want to take a stab at this one, so to speak? How do you explain them being so scared of Joe, if Joe really doesn`t have this track record of extreme violence?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who wants to go?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Go, go, go. Mark.
EIGLARSH: OK, first of all, I don`t think someone needs a track record to be violent. We see people who -- and I`ve defended people who literally have had, you know, led exemplary lives and then did something outrageous.
Again, you mix in the drug addiction, which is something you can talk about, doesn`t necessarily make you more violent, but does make you more likely to lie; does make you do some very desperate, horrific things. And that`s probably what`s going on here. They were all apparently using and in the throes of addiction.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Absolutely.
SALTZ: I would completely concur. I would say, first of all, there are a lot of people who never get caught by law enforcement doing something violent. But they do plenty of violent things or allude to or speak about doing violent things to their family in private and don`t get caught.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Patricia in Massachusetts, your question or thought, ma`am.
CALLER: Hi. My question is, was the brick outside of the door ever checked for fingerprints?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, good one. Let`s take that over to Art Harris.
HARRIS: Yes, it was. And you cannot get finger prints off this kind of a concrete block, Jane. There were several concrete blocks. And I`ve seen in photographs around the trailer, and this one was taken and has been analyzed. We haven`t seen the results. But that`s what experts tell me.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Art, you have breaking news just in. You told me a second ago.
HARRIS: Jane, I can tell you this is taking a toll on the family and that Tommy Croslin`s wife, Lindsay, has filed for divorce. This is an emotional bombshell to Tommy, who adores his wife and their three children. And this could pull the rug right out from under him, and he is now at his most vulnerable. He`s been begging his wife not to leave him. She`s promised to stand by him.
I spoke with her several weeks ago, Jane, and she was hanging in with him. And I told her, I said, "Have you heard about the polygraph?"
She said, "Well, what do you mean?"
I said, "Well, call his lawyer." I didn`t want to tell her myself that I`d learned he flunked it. She called the lawyer. She learned he had flunked his own polygraph. And it has unraveled from there. I`m told she feels very betrayed, Jane. This is someone she believed in.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But wait a second. The polygraph he flunked was the one before he supposedly told the real story, and that`s why he was actually inspired to tell the real story, because Grandma Flo said, "Hey, I hear you flunked the polygraph."
And then he started crying and said, "Yes, I did."
And she said, basically, "Tell me the real story." And then he told her this story about Cousin Joe did it, right?
HARRIS: I broke the story on ArtHarris.com that FBI, former FBI polygraph operator Ron Demeer (ph) out of Jacksonville got him almost to confess to at least knowing a lot more than he`d said before. And that`s when he was confronted with the conflicts and gave them information that led to the police search of the river.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Levi Page, your thoughts on all of this and the divorce? Now this guy, his wife`s leaving him.
PAGE: She`s divorcing him because she knows that he`s lying and that he could possibly be involved in a conspiracy to murder a child. I`d say that`s a good move on her part, not to drag the kid to that jailhouse to be around this kind of man. Who can`t get his story straight and lies through his teeth...
EIGLARSH: Let me say something.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ten seconds, Mark.
EIGLARSH: Jane, again, I don`t know whether Tommy`s guilty or not, but knowing something doesn`t make you guilty. You don`t have to stop it, even. Just -- if he didn`t play any role, any active role, then he`s not guilty of anything. Knowing something doesn`t make it so.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Got to leave it right there. You know we`re coming back to this subject many, many times. Fabulous panel, thank you so much.
oceanblueeyes
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raisincharlie
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Not to steal Levi's thunder but Art has a very interesting comment here. He is saying Misty made calls to family members before the 911 call. While Art is flakey sometimes, it should be interesting to hear who he says Misty called and what Lisa told him Misty said.
This just gets worse and worse - now there are calls to other family members (allegedly) before the 911 call. One has to wonder if some of those calls included Cummings family members - they all got there in a hurry.
Would like to see the phone records, not sure I will believe Art and it is sure going to be hard to believe what LC has to say that Misty told her at that time. What will be interesting to know is when Art had this conversation with LC - before or after the drug busts.
raisincharlie
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Not buying the "fear" nonsense myself. They could have ended all their fears had they all gone immediately to LE and told what happened. While there was a chance of finding Haleigh, of finding evidence to connect someone to the crime. This is more drama. The truth only has one story, how many have we heard from these people now ?
Mist sure wasn't too scared to put her butt on a bus and head to Nashville all alone. Calling this BS.
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