AZ - Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 - #24

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usually before it is actually cold and often from the get go ... there are donations that could be used.

In the missing persons cases I've followed, the families don't usually hire a PI until they feel that LE isn't getting anywhere. That usually takes 6-9 months, sometimes longer.

In at least two cases I know of, LE actively discouraged the families from hiring a PI early in the investigation.

In many cases, the issue is probably money; a reputable PI in my rural state runs around $60+ per hour plus mileage and expenses. I can't imagine that the rates are lower in large cities. At around $500+ per day, the bill mounts up very quickly. It takes a lot of time for most ordinary people to raise that sort of money (it's not covered by your homeowner's insurance!).

Plus, it seems to me that most families cling to LE at first. I imagine it's quite a wrench to admit that the agency one has put so much faith and hope into may not be enough to bring one's loved one back.
 
how about contacting a PI with the bringisahome site? one would think 60,500 is more than enough motivation for a week or two's worth of pro bono sleuthing?

if you google tucson pi's, a dozen or so come up. the acme group, nathe & nathe...i wonder if any of them have done some investigating already.

there's also james spring...he specializes in child abduction/disappearances and has expertise in mexico. not sure how good he is but if contacted, i wonder if he'd consider taking a look at the case. he has a myspace page iirc.

another suggestion is a facebook campaign. i don't have an account (don't laugh at me lol) but what if we just start to ask these questions, as concerned citizens? such as, 'how are the boys doing...are they receiving counseling?'...or 'is rebecca back at work?'...simple stuff. a barrage of honest interest might prompt some movement or better yet, responses from the admin's (both 'find isabel' fb pages).

i agree that we won't see any PI activity from the family so it has to come from an outside source (us). movement is progress, even if negative (such as fb posts being removed). kwim? thoughts?

I may be mistaken but it has been my understanding that PIs are on legally dubious ground if they start an investigation without the permission of a client who has legal standing in the case. Being a PI is not a legal license to start investigating anything just out of curiosity because PIs have access to records and databases that the general public does not have access to.

For instance, a PI can find out a person's credit record, which is information that Joe Public does not usually have legal access to.
 
I may be mistaken but it has been my understanding that PIs are on legally dubious ground if they start an investigation without the permission of a client who has legal standing in the case. Being a PI is not a legal license to start investigating anything just out of curiosity because PIs have access to records and databases that the general public does not have access to.

For instance, a PI can find out a person's credit record, which is information that Joe Public does not usually have legal access to.

Not quite true.

There are companies in the world whose sole business is the collection and sale of information. If you pay the price, anyone can buy it.

This includes credit information.

The only REAL no-go zones are medical records.
 
that guy is iffy in my book ... he found kids once as far as I know and his past, while it may be in the past and far in the past, is a meth runner by his own admission. He is not a PI, but lists himself as a copywriter and other things. No one really knows what his role was in the McStay case and he appears to possibly related to an iffy site iR3

oh i don't disagree...my suggestion was more about pressure. whether reputable or rogue, a PI digging around could potentially cause someone fear. someone who knows something. kwim?

someone does know something. just not sure who that someone is. if i were a PI i'd start with a visit to moore security...even if LE took all their surveillance hard copies, there may be a backup or c: drive archive...rick saw something on those videos. IMO.

in the doc dump, one of the detectives' assignments was to photograph the cars on the street that morning. why? did LE feel that a 'getaway' car would return to the scene that quickly? as we've discussed before, only one car was impounded (that we're aware of)...RR's. was that a car seen on rick's surveillance?

just some early morning thoughts...however mundane...lol...
 
Well to be fair, we don't know that some of these children were not buried by their parent/guardian and instead were "tossed out." Although yes, many unfortunately are. But look at JonBenet & how her parents staged her body--sickening, all to avoid prosecution, left in a hidden room in the cellar of her own home.

How do people get away with clamming up when there's been a crime? It's called the Constitution of the U.S. and the Bill of Rights. The right not to self-incriminate.

But let's say for a moment what happened to Isa was an accident and the family member who did this did not intend to kill her. They're still looking at manslaughter or negligent homicide at a minimum, with maybe 10 years in prison. What are their options at this point (other than turning themselves in)?

Fake an abduction is the next option I suppose. They still have to deal with a body though. They can't bring the life back no matter how much wishing and praying they do and they have to do something...

This is not an uncommon scenario. We know children sometimes die through the actions of a parent or guardian even if the death was not intended. And no, it's not okay, but it does happen. It makes it worse, this staging. Imagine instead if a parent just confessed and didn't try and create an alternative crime scene. "Yes, I snapped and hit my child and caused injuries that resulted in her death. I didn't mean it. I'm confessing." The question is, could you forgive them?

Respectfully, my forgiveness is of zero importance. ;)

If a parent snaps and strikes a child hard enough to kill them, then I can say I haven't got much sympathy for their plight. All of my sympathy lies with that poor child.

I will honestly say I have seen black spots in front of my eyes, I have walked into my bedroom and shut the door and lain on the floor pitching my own tantrum out of my anger and frustration over my child.

I have clenched my fists and screeched and felt as though I wanted to just explode, but ultimately, this is a CHILD. MY child. A person much smaller than me, who depends on me for safety. A person without adult reasoning who expresses their fears through tantrums or "bad" behavior. A person who draws on newly painted walls with marker not because they want to ruin them, but because they wanted to help make them prettier.

But even if a parent loses all reason and does the unimaginable, how could they further desecrate the body that once contained a precious life by denying it a decent burial?

I know some people are not religious or their beliefs do not place a value on a body of the deceased, but to fake a disappearance and hide a child's body is just evil and it says, IMO, that to dishonor their child's memory is fine as long as they can get away with it.

To me, IMHO, when there is a cover up, there is no remorse, only more selfishness.
 
oh i don't disagree...my suggestion was more about pressure. whether reputable or rogue, a PI digging around could potentially cause someone fear. someone who knows something. kwim?

someone does know something. just not sure who that someone is. if i were a PI i'd start with a visit to moore security...even if LE took all their surveillance hard copies, there may be a backup or c: drive archive...rick saw something on those videos. IMO.

in the doc dump, one of the detectives' assignments was to photograph the cars on the street that morning. why? did LE feel that a 'getaway' car would return to the scene that quickly? as we've discussed before, only one car was impounded (that we're aware of)...RR's. was that a car seen on rick's surveillance?

just some early morning thoughts...however mundane...lol...


Yeah, I know what you mean :)

I do hope LE has done many of these things, we just don't know. I still hold hope there is a lot in the search warrants that is important! And, I still search around google from time to time to see if there is any indication of similar crimes. ACK.
 
Yeah, I know what you mean :)

I do hope LE has done many of these things, we just don't know. I still hold hope there is a lot in the search warrants that is important! And, I still search around google from time to time to see if there is any indication of similar crimes. ACK.

BBM I starting doubting there was long ago, they would have acted on it by now imo.
 
BBM I starting doubting there was long ago, they would have acted on it by now imo.

How do we know they haven't?

550+ pages of information is A LOT, and they didn't publish all of it either.

It takes time and manpower to process these leads.

People seem to think LE can wave a magic wand and get results...often they have a mountain of circumstantial evidence, enough to make an arrest 20 years ago...these days juries pretty much require forensic evidence to convict...the CSI effect.

LE may be ready to arrest, but the local DA's office is the one who prosecutes, and may feel the case is not air tight yet.

It's all political.

Personally I believe LE are in the process of gradually ramping up pressure on certain parties, in the hope one will snap and start talking. This will take time. Life does not reflect a tv show where everything is wrapped up in an hour.
 
How do we know they haven't?

550+ pages of information is A LOT, and they didn't publish all of it either.

It takes time and manpower to process these leads.

People seem to think LE can wave a magic wand and get results...often they have a mountain of circumstantial evidence, enough to make an arrest 20 years ago...these days juries pretty much require forensic evidence to convict...the CSI effect.

LE may be ready to arrest, but the local DA's office is the one who prosecutes, and may feel the case is not air tight yet.

It's all political.

Personally I believe LE are in the process of gradually ramping up pressure on certain parties, in the hope one will snap and start talking. This will take time. Life does not reflect a tv show where everything is wrapped up in an hour.

I believe LE knows exactly what happened to Isabel and who is responsible. The more I think about it, the more certain I am. IF for one minute, they thought it was someone outside of the family, LE would be warning parents to keep a closer eye -make sure the doors are locked...etc. But they aren't. They know it is unlikely that whoever harmed Isabel, will harm another child.

I had to laugh at your comment-that life doesn't reflect a tv show where everything is wrapped up in an hour. I have been told since my first day of college, that LE is NOTHING like I have seen on tv. Truer words were never spoken. Thanks!! :)
 
Something little but it's always bothered me. Remember how the next day SC had to go to court over the dogs? I would think that since his 6 year old daughter had just been abducted, and was still missing, that the courts could have rescheduled? Because if my daughter was missing the last thing on my mind would be going to court over a problem with dogs. IF SC wanted to reschedule, would they have? Are they that strict? It never made sense to me.
 
Something little but it's always bothered me. Remember how the next day SC had to go to court over the dogs? I would think that since his 6 year old daughter had just been abducted, and was still missing, that the courts could have rescheduled? Because if my daughter was missing the last thing on my mind would be going to court over a problem with dogs. IF SC wanted to reschedule, would they have? Are they that strict? It never made sense to me.

Good point. I agree. If it were me, I would not have been in court. I cannot even imagine. I would have been hysterical!

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Something little but it's always bothered me. Remember how the next day SC had to go to court over the dogs? I would think that since his 6 year old daughter had just been abducted, and was still missing, that the courts could have rescheduled? Because if my daughter was missing the last thing on my mind would be going to court over a problem with dogs. IF SC wanted to reschedule, would they have? Are they that strict? It never made sense to me.

If there ever was a reason for a continuance, this would be the time to have one granted.

I would never have made it. Ever.
 
They were only misdemeanours for unlicenced/microchipped dogs.

The only reason to attend something like this would be to defend it....ie, claim it's untrue, or there were extenuating circumstances etc.

I most certainly wouldn't be up to defending myself on something so trivial when my baby was missing.
 
They were only misdemeanours for unlicenced/microchipped dogs.

The only reason to attend something like this would be to defend it....ie, claim it's untrue, or there were extenuating circumstances etc.

I most certainly wouldn't be up to defending myself on something so trivial when my baby was missing.

I would have sent a friend to go in my place and tell the judge my baby was missing. I would have never gone to court over a misdemeanor of any kind.
 
Makes no sense as far as it being just evidence on the family.. number one, the family knows what evidence was found with them guilty of the crime(they committed it..its their home)..number two, certainly the public is aware that the supposed focus is solely on this family and seemingly no where else..

It seems to me atleast in theory that the evidence could very likely show involvement of another party that LE desperately wish to keep in the frame of mind that they are not suspected and no evidence leading anywhere except for family.. IMO for obvious strategic reasons that would make sense..

With not knowing it of course could go either way but IMO it strictly being evidence of family guilt wouldn't make sense for the above reasons and the obvious desperate need LE feel to keep the evidence unknown still.. jmo nothing more..

I am now trying to catch up on Isa's case. I have been unable to do so in quite sometime but I did want to agree with you on this post SO.

Through the years I have seen other LE ask for the SWs to remain sealed. This usually happens when the investigation is still ongoing and a prepretrator has not been apprehended and arrested.

I can understand them doing this. Pertinent information shouldnt be released as long as the case remains unsolved.

I would have been more surprised had they not ask the Judge to keep them sealed and it wouldnt surprise me if they go back to the Judge again requesting the same thing if an arrest has not been made by August.

IMO
 
I believe LE knows exactly what happened to Isabel and who is responsible. The more I think about it, the more certain I am. IF for one minute, they thought it was someone outside of the family, LE would be warning parents to keep a closer eye -make sure the doors are locked...etc. But they aren't. They know it is unlikely that whoever harmed Isabel, will harm another child.

I had to laugh at your comment-that life doesn't reflect a tv show where everything is wrapped up in an hour. I have been told since my first day of college, that LE is NOTHING like I have seen on tv. Truer words were never spoken. Thanks!! :)

I wish LE acted the way you expect they would but they simply dont. Not one LE personnel came out ever and warned the parents in the community when Jessica Lunsford was taken by a vile RSO pedophile. They did not do it when Danielle Van Dam went missing either nor when the Greone children were kidnapped from their home by a sadistic repeat offender, Joe Duncan, that tortured them for 7 weeks.

It is more common for LE not to warn the community. Why they dont do that I dont know. Maybe many of them know parents can think for themselves when situations like this occur and dont need LE leading them around by the nose in order to know to watch their children closely.

And stranger pedophiles rarely commit the same offense in one tight area but will move on to another town and pick another victim. Or they will wait years before they strike again.

I dont think TPD has any idea who the person is that kidnapped Isa and that is why the case remains unsolved months later.

IMO
 
I am now trying to catch up on Isa's case. I have been unable to do so in quite sometime but I did want to agree with you on this post SO.

Through the years I have seen other LE ask for the SWs to remain sealed. This usually happens when the investigation is still ongoing and a prepretrator has not been apprehended and arrested.

I can understand them doing this. Pertinent information shouldnt be released as long as the case remains unsolved.

I would have been more surprised had they not ask the Judge to keep them sealed and it wouldnt surprise me if they go back to the Judge again requesting the same thing if an arrest has not been made by August.

IMO

I agree. I know some here do not read anything into keeping some warrants sealed, however it speaks volumes to me.
 
I agree. I know some here do not read anything into keeping some warrants sealed, however it speaks volumes to me.

BBM

May I ask why, Shelby?

If I had not seen it done in many other cases I may think something hinky too but it seems to be more customary when a case is ongoing and remains unsolved.

IMO
 
I wish LE acted the way you expect they would but they simply dont. Not one LE personnel came out ever and warned the parents in the community when Jessica Lunsford was taken by a vile RSO pedophile. They did not do it when Danielle Van Dam went missing either nor when the Greone children were kidnapped from their home by a sadistic repeat offender, Joe Duncan, that tortured them for 7 weeks.

It is more common for LE not to warn the community. Why they dont do that I dont know. Maybe many of them know parents can think for themselves when situations like this occur and dont need LE leading them around by the nose in order to know to watch their children closely.

And stranger pedophiles rarely commit the same offense in one tight area but will move on to another town and pick another victim. Or they will wait years before they strike again.

I dont think TPD has any idea who the person is that kidnapped Isa and that is why the case remains unsolved months later.

IMO

I would think that the public is not warned about a particular predator because there is more than ONE perp out there.(In any given locale.) Parents should be vigilant at ALL times, not just for a time after a crime in committed. If you warn people, many will become cavalier once a known perp is caught. But what about the hundreds of others lurking about?

In the medical field, we treat ALL body fluids as potentially HIV infected. We are careful of ALL fluids, because any patient could infect us. Even the patient might not know they were infected. The riskiest body fluid is the one no one KNOWS is infected - thus practice universal precautions on all. The same principle applies to protecting our children.
 
Another case of some sicko coming into the home while the family is sleeping and raping and assaulting a 4 year old little girl. In this case, the little girl lived and her step dad was falsely accused - spent 13 weeks in jail and was released once DNA came back. They have a match to the DNA and are looking for the perp. Just makes me sick that this crap keeps happening. Same thing with Sierra Newbold but she was killed and they have that perp in jail.

4-Year-Old Sapulpa OK- Girl In Hospital After Being Attacked By Intruder - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community
 
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