Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #2

[otto]

When you are a billionaire, you have no need for insurance.

When you are frugal, you have life insurance. In fact, the more self worth, the higher the insurance benefit.

 

[Jennifer17]

When you are frugal, you have life insurance. In fact, the more self worth, the higher the insurance benefit.

I am not sure that the payout would be huge with a couple in their seventies.

 

[otto]

How would you know if there's nothing to support the theory of a double homicide when nothing has been released?

And no I don't know who in Canada is currently falsley imprisoned, but you could Google it if you like.

There is an entire organization that helps people falsley imprisoned get exonerated http://innocencecanada.com/?ref=aidwyc

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

I know there is no evidence to support a double murder because police have said that there is no evidence of a break in. I really don't care what anyone has said about the side door being left open for home care nursing staff. This couple had enough common sense to lock their doors when they were out, and at night.

I responded to the claim that Canada has a problematic situation of falsely imprisoned criminals. If there is a wish to continue that argument, please provide the name of one of those persons. Otherwise, reserve that conversation to USA judicial errors. To my knowledge, those problems were resolved with the advent of DNA science.

 

[otto]

Its been nearly a week since the Homicide Squad was called in. The police probably have an idea of what occurred, possibly more autopsy results are in and IMO they are waiting, out of respect for the family, before telling them anything. The family will still be sitting Shiva, not sure when that ends but it wouldn't surprise me if thats when the police approach the family. Depending on the information given, the family may or may not withhold the information. If its a suicide/murder, we won't be told much, maybe just that the case has been closed.
If its a double homicide, we will, probably be told that its a double homicide and might be given a bit of information as to why they believe that to be the case.

This is such a bizarre case, I wouldn't be surprised if it takes quite some time to solve it. The perps have had at least a week to get away.
IMO

Yes, it has been nearly a week since the family insisted that the deaths be treated as homicides. The police expressed their idea about the deaths shortly after the discovery of the bodies: murder/suicide.

It's a bizarre case because Barry's company had a lot of money. Other than the money, it looks like a couple had a spat about where they would live and because of that, he killed her,and then killed himself. The perp didn't get away. He is dead.

 

[Lilibet]

OKAY.

As a murder suicide, this is not a 'worm thing'. It's simply a situation where he got angry, he strangled her, and he realized that his life as he knew it was gone. Rich or not, if his wife was found dead in the house and no signs of an intruder, he would be the prime suspect and he would be immediately arrested. Everything they did in their lives would be down the toilet and the only thing he would be remembered for was murdering his wife. By dragging her down to the pool so he could commit suicide, he did the honourable thing. He took responsibility for her death, and he preserved their reputations.

BBM

If this is a murder/manslaughter-suicide, I believe he knew his kids would NEVER accept that determination, but would always believe they were both murdered, no matter what. So, at the very least, he would preserve his reputation with his kids, by staging Honey as a suicide and taking his own life.

I’m still perched on the fence, but the scenario you (and I) have described still makes the most sense to me...much more sense than two murders.

 

[Lilibet]

When you are frugal, you have life insurance. In fact, the more self worth, the higher the insurance benefit.

I tend to agree. We forget that net worth may not mean available cash, but money tied up in a business or property, and would need to be liquidated. Insurance provides cash immediately.

I am not sure that the payout would be huge with a couple in their seventies.

I’m under the impression that the payout would depend on the type of policy and when it was purchased, but I could be wrong and I’m too lazy to google right now.

 

[otto]

Without any autopsy or toxicology or interviewing people or checking video cameras, I am not sure that they had the full evidence to come to a public conclusion like that. After all police did the same with Wayne Millard by declaring his death a suicide and now there will be a trial for his murder. Police make mistakes like the rest of us.

Let's not underestimate common sense. From what we have read on this forum, and linked to news articles, the couple was found in their home in the basement. They had their heads tied to a poolside railing with belts. People here said that one body was in rigor, one was not, which means one was killed first, the other died later.

Toxicology and DNA doesn't replace other evidence, it merely adds to it. Just because he had a job in pharmaceuticals, it doesn't mean he used drugs in his life or death.

Attached are two bodies. You can see by the blankets that they are not the same body. One is flat, one is not. How did that happen?

 

[Jennifer17]

I tend to agree. We forget that net worth may not mean available cash, but money tied up in a business or property, and would need to be liquidated. Insurance provides cash immediately.



I’m under the impression that the payout would depend on the type of policy and when it was purchased, but I could be wrong and I’m too lazy to google right now.

I can only speak about the life insurance component that comes with my superannuation account that I have had since when I started working. If I had died in my twenties or thirties the payout was substantial, but declined rapidly as I aged.

 

[otto]

When the bodies were first found, I think the police jumped the gun with their comment about suicide/murder because there are so many domestics where the woman is dead and the husband has killed her. They should have called it suspicious and waited for autopsy results and done some investigating before making that statement. I understand the family heard about it from the media and thats so very wrong.

The media doesn't help, they push and push, even when the police say 'no comment' certain reporters become more aggressive. I find that very hard to stomach as they have zero consideration for the family members. Every victim is someones mother, father, brother, sister, aunt etc, etc.

Its all about a story, no compassion whatsoever.

Regarding: there are "so many domestics where the woman is dead because the husband killed her" in Toronto? Can you provide two references where police automatically assumed that two deaths were a murder suicide and they were right? Is spousal homicide followed by suicide common in Toronto?

Police called it as they saw it, and the family was unhappy. Because the deceased were rich, police are trying to keep the children of the rich family happy.

The media have responsibly reported and referenced "police sources" in providing information to the public. Frankmag blog is not a reliable source. We know that there is no sign of a break-in, the bodies were found strangled by the pool, the wife was likely murdered first in another part of the house, that she was staged at the pool next to the murderer, that they had many reasons to live, and that their last recent big deal was about moving to a new house with uncertain timelines.

 

[otto]

I would imagine forensics were. Where I live a coroner does not go to crime scenes, forensic staff do, a medical examiner does the autopsy and the coroner presents the findings. I am not sure of the methodology in Canada.

In Canada, police attend the crime scene, they report to the prosecutor, the bodies are delivered to the coroner, the coroner communicates with the prosecutor, the prosecutor does go to the coroner's office to discuss the bodies. The coroner's office is in the same place as the bodies.

 

[otto]

BBM

If this is a murder/manslaughter-suicide, I believe he knew his kids would NEVER accept that determination, but would always believe they were both murdered, no matter what. So, at the very least, he would preserve his reputation with his kids, by staging Honey as a suicide and taking his own life.

I’m still perched on the fence, but the scenario you (and I) have described still makes the most sense to me...much more sense than two murders.

I do believe that he wanted the world to be so stupid as to believe that they two of them side by side overlooking the pool was a double murder.

 

[pamelado2]

I know there is no evidence to support a double murder because police have said that there is no evidence of a break in. I really don't care what anyone has said about the side door being left open for home care nursing staff. This couple had enough common sense to lock their doors when they were out, and at night.

I responded to the claim that Canada has a problematic situation of falsely imprisoned criminals. If there is a wish to continue that argument, please provide the name of one of those persons. Otherwise, reserve that conversation to USA judicial errors. To my knowledge, those problems were resolved with the advent of DNA science.

No evidence of a break in does not equal no murder. There are many scenarios that would have allowed for that. Surprising HS in the driveway and using the garage door opener is the most likely as far as I'm concerned, and easily done. Also surprising her at the door and shoving their way in. Or knowing her husband was expected shortly, she may have left the front door unlocked for him.
You may not care what was said about the side door but I believe at least 2 people have been quoted saying it, and I tend to believe victim's friends. But what makes you think they had enough sense to lock it or remember to lock it when leaving for a meeting for that matter? It doesn't sound like they were concerned about security at all.

I'm not sure why you're using the term "problematic situation" I don't believe I said that at all. However, I did provide a website that contains a list of 21 people (Canadians) who were eventually exonerated. I take it you didn't read any of their stories (so far none of the ones I've read had anything to do with DNA).

From that website:

"Of the 94 cases currently under review, 78 are under review as part of our assessment process. Sixteen have been adopted by the Innocence Canada Board of Directors, meaning we have satisfied ourselves that the individual is innocent and legal work is ongoing."

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

 

[Jennifer17]

Regarding: there are "so many domestics where the woman is dead because the husband killed her" in Toronto? Can you provide two references where police automatically assumed that two deaths were a murder suicide and they were right? Is spousal homicide followed by suicide common in Toronto?

Police called it as they saw it, and the family was unhappy. Because the deceased were rich, police are trying to keep the children of the rich family happy.

The media have responsibly reported and referenced "police sources" in providing information to the public. Frankmag blog is not a reliable source. We know that there is no sign of a break-in, the bodies were found strangled by the pool, the wife was likely murdered first in another part of the house, that she was staged at the pool next to the murderer, that they had many reasons to live, and that their last recent big deal was about moving to a new house with uncertain timelines.

That is common all over the world, with or without the suicide of the spouse. Women are many times more likely to be killed by an intimate or formerly intimate partner than a stranger. Not so much with men.

 

[justchrissy47]

No, I'm saying that the police have already released their findings. They called this a murder suicide.

There is absolutely nothing to support a theory of double murder, so there's no reason to run down rabbit holes.

I'm not aware of anyone genuinely claiming to be falsely imprisoned in Canada. Can you offer a name of someone who claims to have been falsely imprisoned last year, or maybe, let's say, the last five years. I don't mean every person in the prison system, I mean someone who may legitimately be falsely imprisoned in Canada and where there are legal documents to read.

I'm older ...but Steven Truscott and David Milgard come to mind for me

Sent from my SM-G955W using Tapatalk

 

[Snoop Sister]

I tend to agree. We forget that net worth may not mean available cash, but money tied up in a business or property, and would need to be liquidated. Insurance provides cash immediately.



I’m under the impression that the payout would depend on the type of policy and when it was purchased, but I could be wrong and I’m too lazy to google right now.

Yes, insurance payouts depend on the policy chosen. I don’t think insurance pays out until COD is established. Most companies pay out for suicides if after one year of having the policy.

 

[otto]

BBM

If this is a murder/manslaughter-suicide, I believe he knew his kids would NEVER accept that determination, but would always believe they were both murdered, no matter what. So, at the very least, he would preserve his reputation with his kids, by staging Honey as a suicide and taking his own life.

I’m still perched on the fence, but the scenario you (and I) have described still makes the most sense to me...much more sense than two murders.

He staged his death and his wife's death as murders, but I don't believe that is not the whole story. She died first, per 'she was murdered in another part of the house', and he staged her as a murder. He had two choices: to go down in history as the billionaire who murdered his wife after a spat about a new house, or as a philanthropist who donated to important institutions. He took the high road, tried to fool his family, and left doubt with the public about what he did.

 

[otto]

I tend to agree. We forget that net worth may not mean available cash, but money tied up in a business or property, and would need to be liquidated. Insurance provides cash immediately.

I’m under the impression that the payout would depend on the type of policy and when it was purchased, but I could be wrong and I’m too lazy to google right now.

Insurance payout would depend on policy. If she died first, which is what we've heard, then everything goes to him. If he commits suicide, then the legitimacy of the policy is in question. Most insurance policies do not accept suicide as a good reason to pay a large amount of money to the estate - however, Barry liked litigation, so if one of the children is equally inclined to litigate and argue everything to the "win", then perhaps the estate will eventually pay the children on a policy where the policy holder murdered his wife and then committed suicide.

Barry recognized that none of his children or cousins were interested or capable of being in the pharmaceutical business, but there's always litigation to get rich. Maybe one of his children learned how to use law to get rich.

 

[pamelado2]

I just realized LE never said it was a murder-suicide. Why did the media run with that?

http://torontosun.com/news/local-news/much-loved-billionaire-couple-found-dead-in-north-york-mansion

"Officially, Toronto Police aren’t commenting on the tragedy — other than to call the deaths of one of Canada’s richest couples “suspicious.”"

"Bott said homicide detectives will conduct a full investigation and all avenues will be explored."

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

 

[Peace777]

He staged his death and his wife's death as murders, but I don't believe that is not the whole story. She died first, per 'she was murdered in another part of the house', and he staged her as a murder. He had two choices: to go down in history as the billionaire who murdered his wife after a spat about a new house, or as a philanthropist who donated to important institutions. He took the high road, tried to fool his family, and left doubt with the public about what he did.

Hmmm wonder what LE are searching sewers and roof for then?? https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/police-seen-searching-sewer-roof-of-sherman-mansion-1.3734344

 

[Lilibet]

He staged his death and his wife's death as murders, but I don't believe that is not the whole story. She died first, per 'she was murdered in another part of the house', and he staged her as a murder. He had two choices: to go down in history as the billionaire who murdered his wife after a spat about a new house, or as a philanthropist who donated to important institutions. He took the high road, tried to fool his family, and left doubt with the public about what he did.

BBM

I’m not ready to decide what a fatal argument may have been about specifically, but various stressors can escalate what would normally be a small argument, easily resolved. One impulsive shove and she could have been close to death. I’m not at all sure that the initial incident was necessarily strangling. That’s what killed her, but hitting her head severely could have precipitated the whole elaborate final staged scene. If it was murder-suicide, we will probably never know. There will always be doubt, as you say.
JMO for now