Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #2

[Tortoise]

From my extensive viewing of crime dramas, the only thing I've ever really seen flushed down toilets is drugs. No clue how that could relate to this case, though, other than the obvious fact that Mr. Sherman was in the pharmaceutical business.

It might have been discussed copiously (most things here are lol) I'm just catching up, but surely this is not a foul sewer with a drain cover like that? IMO it's a storm sewer to drain surface water from the street.

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...sherman-deaths-checking-sewers-for-clues.html

 

[Tighthead]

Who owns the company with the death of Barry? Maybe there is a financial basis to this.

Canadian drugmaker Apotex Inc. said it will spend $184 million to expand its facilities in South Florida and create 150 new jobs.

The Toronto-based maker of generic drugs, which said it has annual sales of about $2 billion, will continue to operate two existing facilities in Florida.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...invest-184-million-to-expand-in-south-florida

Good Gracious Meds! They apparently have businesses in Belgium, Australia, Czech, France, USA, Spain, Netherlands, Mexico, India, UK
http://www.pharmaceutical-business-review.com/companies/apotex_inc#

Likely all shares of Apotex or any holding companies go to the four children in equal shares.

 

[Sconnie]

try grabbing the jacket in centre back and pulling hard but slowly. it should slide down the arms. as we don't know if the jackets were pulled down first, try it as they're walking past you and without the belt. the couple could have been killed after the jackets were pulled to keep them from fighting/struggling.

I agree completely, if someone else did it. I think it would be almost impossible to do to yourself, however.

 

[Sconnie]

I think the belt is buckled as normal and the railing is inside the loop that automatically forms, then a person puts the same loop over their head.

Also just to answer another post - I'm from Wisconsin and never locked my doors until it was time to go to bed. UNTIL I joined Websleuths!

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Thanks, Pamelado...I have to admit we are very lax here about locking our doors in our small Wisconsin town. After everything I've read here we should be better!!

 

[pamelado2]

Sure. No evidence of a break in means that no one else was in the house.

So the couple are bumbling fools who no longer know how to lock the front door, but they are managing billion dollar companies and demolishing perfectly good houses close to downtown?

The side door was allegedly left open to nursing staff for Canadian style free home care, but that doesn't mean that the billionaire and his wife didn't know how to lock the door at night.

I don't really care about convicted people who were exonerated due to DNA evidence. The suggestion was that Canada has incarcerated innocent people, and I have only requested their names and links to legal documents to support this claim. No one denies that Canadians have been falsely convicted, but Canada has done everything possible to correct the error with millions of dollars - an option that is not available in the USA. Is there a post-dna innocent convicted criminal evidence who is in the system today? If so, please post names and links to legal documents. Otherwise, please do not imply that Canada's jails are full of innocent people.

No, actually it doesn't. It means exactly what it says. No one broke in, period. Just because you don't want to admit there are ways of accessing the house without breaking in or without leaving evidence that you broke in, doesn't mean it's not true.

<modsnip>

You said "No one denies that Canadians have been falsely convicted". Thank you. That's the end of the discussion. That's exactly what I said. <modsnip>
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[A Widow]

Searching the roof and the drain sewer seems somehow connected. The eave-troughing leads into the drain sewer? What could possibly land on the roof to then be washed into the drain? Also, with Honey killed first - how long would she have been dead before Barry for this to become obvious? How long were both dead before they were found? The house staff don't detect anything unusual during this time?

 

[Tortoise]

I agree completely, if someone else did it. I think it would be almost impossible to do to yourself, however.

And there would be no point in him staging Honey's death as a suicide if he hasn't bothered to clear up the scene of her actual murder, if sources are accurate.

 

[Elley Mae]

Searching the roof and the drain sewer seems somehow connected. The eave-troughing leads into the drain sewer? What could possibly land on the roof to then be washed into the drain? Also, with Honey killed first - how long would she have been dead before Barry for this to become obvious? How long were both dead before they were found? The house staff don't detect anything unusual during this time?

All very good points.

Welcome to Websleuths!

 

[Wild Rose]

Who owns the company with the death of Barry? Maybe there is a financial basis to this.

Canadian drugmaker Apotex Inc. said it will spend $184 million to expand its facilities in South Florida and create 150 new jobs.

The Toronto-based maker of generic drugs, which said it has annual sales of about $2 billion, will continue to operate two existing facilities in Florida.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...invest-184-million-to-expand-in-south-florida

Good Gracious Meds! They apparently have businesses in Belgium, Australia, Czech, France, USA, Spain, Netherlands, Mexico, India, UK
http://www.pharmaceutical-business-review.com/companies/apotex_inc#

My husband worked in Pharma, he often had international travel to some of these countries. He explained to me that meds are so expensive because certain reactants in the chemical formulations of these meds are substances that are only found specifically in one country. So that is why med prices are driven up. So pharma is international business. Hope this explains.

 

[JDG]

Sconnie, I was able to do it to myself in the manner explained. As if reaching up from behind to scratch your back, pull the jacket outwards and downwards.

 

[Sconnie]

Sconnie, I was able to do it to myself in the manner explained. As if reaching up from behind to scratch your back, pull the jacket outwards and downwards.

Thans, JDG!! I don't think I am that nimble!!

 

[TTF14]

Thans, JDG!! I don't think I am that nimble!!

Haha! Glad I'm not the only one!

 

[pamelado2]

However, sources say police were working Friday night on the theory the demise of the billionaire Apotex founder and his wife, which has stunned the city and those who knew them, may have been a murder-suicide.
From the same article that you posted.

'

Yes, I realize that. My post was to show actual LE statements. Everyone keeps posting what "sources" say even though the actual police statement contradicts that. According to LE they do not have their minds made up that this was a murder/suicide.
I came late to this thread. While catching up with posts, I was under the impression that LE said it's murder/suicide and later decided to investigate whether it could be a double homicide. But that's not true at all.

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[pamelado2]

Oh?

"Toronto police are investigating the possibility that the deaths of billionaire Barry Sherman and his wife were a murder-suicide — a theory the family is rejecting as “irresponsible” rumors.

The bodies of Sherman, 75, and his wife, Honey, were found in their North York mansion just before noon Friday.

Officially, Toronto police have released little information about the deaths, beyond that they were deemed suspicious. But police sources confirm to the Star that police are now probing the possibility that they were a murder-suicide."

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...gating-death-of-billionaire-and-his-wife.html

Exactly - not an LE statement. "Sources" said it - and according to this it was a 'possibility'. As per my above quote, actual LE statements were made saying the deaths were suspicious and they were investigating all angles.

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[SteveHolt!]

Insurance payout would depend on policy. If she died first, which is what we've heard, then everything goes to him. If he commits suicide, then the legitimacy of the policy is in question. Most insurance policies do not accept suicide as a good reason to pay a large amount of money to the estate - however, Barry liked litigation, so if one of the children is equally inclined to litigate and argue everything to the "win", then perhaps the estate will eventually pay the children on a policy where the policy holder murdered his wife and then committed suicide.

Barry recognized that none of his children or cousins were interested or capable of being in the pharmaceutical business, but there's always litigation to get rich. Maybe one of his children learned how to use law to get rich.

Anything’s possible. All depends on the policy. If the beneficiary of a policy was responsible for the death, it would not pay out. That said, at this level of wealth there are likely to be very complex structures around finances. I also agree that life insurance might not be a significant component of the overall wealth at stake here, so maybe not that significant for motive.

 

[Tortoise]

The only image I've been able to find of leather belts on a pole. You have to imagine it looped and not pulled flat by the weight of the curtain. The loop created doesn't hang facing you, the pole makes the loop hang sideways on. I think hands would have been needed to hold the belts in place while their heads were positioned. If they were sitting with their arms restrained any attempt to nudge the belt with the head may cause the belts to slide or swing on the metal rail and not only that, they are leaning forwards and without use of their arms they have less ability to stop themselves toppling into the pool.

I'd be surprised if Barry held Honey's dead weight in a sitting position and leaning forwards with one hand, if he has to use his other hand to help position the belt. Her weight would make her flop anywhere but upright and holding her by her head only would put even greater strain on him to stop her weight pulling him as soon as she moves past the upright position. Her bottom has to be positioned further away from the belt placement for her to lean in, unless the bottom of the loop is exactly in line with the level of her chin to hold her there.

 

[Satchie]

I just realized LE never said it was a murder-suicide. Why did the media run with that?

http://torontosun.com/news/local-news/much-loved-billionaire-couple-found-dead-in-north-york-mansion

"Officially, Toronto Police aren’t commenting on the tragedy — other than to call the deaths of one of Canada’s richest couples “suspicious.”"

"Bott said homicide detectives will conduct a full investigation and all avenues will be explored."

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Just to explain about the media, when the news came out about the deaths, people, and the media, immediately wanted to know what happened. The media were standing for hours outside the house on a cold day. They didn't want to wait for days for the official announcement. Intense curiosity: were they murdered? A very uncommon thing to happen in Toronto, 2 wealthy people killed in their home, pretty darn news-worthy.

And yet Toronto police specifically stated homicide detectives were not assigned to the case, but were assisting the investigation. They were not looking for suspects! What could that mean? That there was no obvious signs of homicide. So what would that mean? Could it be murder-suicide? Reporters pestered their sources for confirmation.

That's how these things work: reading between the lines, second-guessing what police statements really mean, anticipating their next move, wanting to be first to publish any news.

The fact there's been no official statement that the deaths were both homicides, is a pretty strong clue, to me, of murder-suicide. Police will usually announce whether a death was a homicide right away, they don't pussy-foot around. Most homicides are obvious: signs of struggle, and death through someone's aggressive use of force. Violence leaves signs of violence behind, and on bodies, homicide detectives and forensics can spot these things

 

[Inthedetails]

Searching the roof and the drain sewer seems somehow connected. The eave-troughing leads into the drain sewer? What could possibly land on the roof to then be washed into the drain? Also, with Honey killed first - how long would she have been dead before Barry for this to become obvious? How long were both dead before they were found? The house staff don't detect anything unusual during this time?

The ME should be able to determine how long each person was deceased. There might be a long gap between them. We don't know yet about the timing of the deaths.

Did BS, during that gap, make any phone calls or send any emails? That is something to be investigated. We haven't heard anything about that yet.

During the gap between deaths, is there evidence of where BS was in the house and what he was doing? He was unlikely in the pool area the entire time, unless he had the belts set up in advance. If he didn't have anything set up, he had to get the belts from somewhere in the house, presumably his bedroom closet.

If there was an outside murderer, is there evidence that someone outside the household was in BS's closet to get belts or did the murderer bring the belts?

I'm on the fence, but lean toward murder-suicide. :fence:

jmopinion

 

[dotr]

Welcome to all the new Wsers and to everyone reading here!
:welcome:
Also want to thank Tricia and all the amazing and hard-working Mods who help keep it all in line!

 

[Inthedetails]

Welcome to all the new Wsers and to everyone reading here!
:welcome:
Also want to thank Tricia and all the amazing and hard-working Mods who help keep it all in line!

I second that shout out to our Mods!!