Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #2

[Grace.212]

How long do toxicology report takes. I am guessing the investigators are waiting on this.

 

[positivethoughts]

I think what Alice means is that she doesn't believe it was a murder suicide, she can believe that one might be able to commit suicide if they felt something so overwhelming that they may not see another way out, but she can't believe with such a loving family and everything people seem to know about them that one could not murder someone before taking their own life? (in this situation anyways)

Double Murder

 

[Betty P]

The ME should be able to determine how long each person was deceased. There might be a long gap between them. We don't know yet about the timing of the deaths.

Did BS, during that gap, make any phone calls or send any emails? That is something to be investigated. We haven't heard anything about that yet.

During the gap between deaths, is there evidence of where BS was in the house and what he was doing? He was unlikely in the pool area the entire time, unless he had the belts set up in advance. If he didn't have anything set up, he had to get the belts from somewhere in the house, presumably his bedroom closet.

If there was an outside murderer, is there evidence that someone outside the household was in BS's closet to get belts or did the murderer bring the belts?

I'm on the fence, but lean toward murder-suicide. :fence:

jmopinion

That's a good point. If someone murdered them, they either would have needed to bring the belts to the crime scene or locate them in the home. If the belts were from the home, it indicates a murderer would not have come there with the intent to kill but did so as the situation escalated to violence. That would indicate a violent altercation of some kind took place with arguments, shouting, a struggle, etc. that any staff in the home would have heard. JMO

 

[tarabull]

Interesting read - sorry if already posted:

The tumultuous life of the late Shermans
December 23, 2017

Snipped...

...Sherman never backed down from a fight.

Those who knew him say it was his willingness to go to war — about anything – that helped make Sherman one of the country’s richest men.

During his life, he launched literally hundreds of lawsuits and was on the receiving end of more than a few.

And it made him a lot of enemies.

“The concept of letting go was not in his DNA,” longtime friend and former Apotex CEO Jack Kay said. “He was tenacious when he felt he was right.”

Read more: http://canoe.com/news/local-news/th...rman/wcm/e0e0574a-9542-4bfb-913a-b298ed05d7b3

 

[Betty P]

How long do toxicology report takes. I am guessing the investigators are waiting on this.

Not sure about Canada, but in the US it usually takes anywhere from 3 to 6 weeks or longer.

 

[JDG]

Just to explain about the media, when the news came out about the deaths, people, and the media, immediately wanted to know what happened. The media were standing for hours outside the house on a cold day. They didn't want to wait for days for the official announcement. Intense curiosity: were they murdered? A very uncommon thing to happen in Toronto, 2 wealthy people killed in their home, pretty darn news-worthy.

And yet Toronto police specifically stated homicide detectives were not assigned to the case, but were assisting the investigation. They were not looking for suspects! What could that mean? That there was no obvious signs of homicide. So what would that mean? Could it be murder-suicide? Reporters pestered their sources for confirmation.

That's how these things work: reading between the lines, second-guessing what police statements really mean, anticipating their next move, wanting to be first to publish any news.

The fact there's been no official statement that the deaths were both homicides, is a pretty strong clue, to me, of murder-suicide. Police will usually announce whether a death was a homicide right away, they don't pussy-foot around. Most homicides are obvious: signs of struggle, and death through someone's aggressive use of force. Violence leaves signs of violence behind, and on bodies, homicide detectives and forensics can spot these things

I agree with most of what you've posted but not about the reason for lack of official statement. Its only been ten days, the autopsy results are still not complete as toxicology reports can take a few weeks. The family are still sitting Shiva and the police will not give out any information without first telling the family, as it should be. With Lawyer Greenspan helping the family, the TPS will be extremely careful about dotting i's and crossing t's before coming to any conclusions. Not to say they aren't usually careful but this is such a bizarre case, probably has twists and turns galore.

By now, I think they have a good idea of whats what but are not releasing anything for a myriad of reasons.

I do agree about the aggressive nature of the media. Anything to get the story, don't care about the family that is devastated.

The media dummied up very quickly after the family made their statements. It was so wrong for the family to find out via the media, so wrong. JMO

 

[Inthedetails]

That's a good point. If someone murdered them, they either would have needed to bring the belts to the crime scene or locate them in the home. If the belts were from the home, it indicates a murderer would not have come there with the intent to kill but did so as the situation escalated to violence. That would indicate a violent altercation of some kind took place with arguments, shouting, a struggle, etc. that any staff in the home would have heard. JMO

I suppose, if this is double-murder, that the killer could have used his own belt and BS's belt.

Just thinking through the logistics...jmo

 

[Betty P]

I suppose, if this is double-murder, that the killer could have used his own belt and BS's belt.

Just thinking through the logistics...jmo

Yes, that's possible. But generally, a more spontaneous murder would have been preceded by some sort of argument, shouting, struggle that others would have heard. Mr. Sherman doesn't sound like the kind of person who would have gone down without a fight. His wife would have struggled as well and there would probably be signs of that.

I'm just dropping in after not reading the latest articles on this case. Has it been confirmed that there was staff in the home at the time of the couple's deaths?

 

[JayFriend]

The TPS does NOt have the resources to carry this to the end. This should be an RCMP investigation.JMO.

Yes, the TPS bungled the Laura Babcock murder, originally not investigating because of her risky lifestyle, but this is different. This is a high profile billionaire family looking over their shoulder and I'm sure no resource will, be spared.

 

[Grey-St]

I think some folks here need to take a moment, a breather, and re-evaluate. I cannot tell you how many times I read some form of "I know this was a murder-suicide because the police made a statement saying so" over the last few pages. The police made no such statement. It sounds like it was a preliminary theory when TPS arrived at the crime scene, and someone in the know, maybe even someone who was there, took that and spoke to a reporter. Anonymously.

I believe it's possible that when arriving at the crime scene, someone could have said "this looks like a murder-suicide". That's a natural reaction, I suppose. But TPS, in no way, shape or form, have confirmed that to the media. I also think it's unfair to say that the children are flat out rejecting the murder-suicide theory, and that TPS are appeasing them because they have money. They simply asked LE to do a thorough investigation, and refrain from leaking information that hasn't been substantiated, per their statement. That seems to be what LE are now doing.

We know very, very little in all honesty. There are so many plausible scenarios where this could have been a murder-suicide and this could have been a double-homicide. I think the only responsible place to be at this point in time is on the fence, and that's where I remain seated. Come join me, I'll share my hot cocoa. :fence:

 

[dotr]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/sherman-investigation-update-1.4464062

[h=1]Investigators comb through sewers for clues to deaths of Barry and Honey Sherman[/h] [h=3]A source with knowledge of the investigation says that the move was done 'out of an abundance of caution'[/h]

Investigators could be seen working with city employees Saturday to open up sewer grates near the house.

They used a hydro-excavator as "a large vacuum" and a magnet to locate any "suspicious metals," a source said. They then took the gathered contents to a work yard and combed through the material, looking for anything that could be considered as evidence.

The team plans to comb through more sewers near the Sherman's mansion on 50 Old Colony Road, near Bayview and the 401 as soon as they can coordinate the operation with the city.

A Toronto police forensic officer being raised above the Sherman home on Thursday to photograph the crime scene and view the home's roof for possible clues. (John Lancaster/CBC)

 

[pamelado2]

I think some folks here need to take a moment, a breather, and re-evaluate. I cannot tell you how many times I read some form of "I know this was a murder-suicide because the police made a statement saying so" over the last few pages. The police made no such statement. It sounds like it was a preliminary theory when TPS arrived at the crime scene, and someone in the know, maybe even someone who was there, took that and spoke to a reporter. Anonymously.

I believe it's possible that when arriving at the crime scene, someone could have said "this looks like a murder-suicide". That's a natural reaction, I suppose. But TPS, in no way, shape or form, have confirmed that to the media. I also think it's unfair to say that the children are flat out rejecting the murder-suicide theory, and that TPS are appeasing them because they have money. They simply asked LE to do a thorough investigation, and refrain from leaking information that hasn't been substantiated, per their statement. That seems to be what LE are now doing.

We know very, very little in all honesty. There are so many plausible scenarios where this could have been a murder-suicide and this could have been a double-homicide. I think the only responsible place to be at this point in time is on the fence, and that's where I remain seated. Come join me, I'll share my hot cocoa. :fence:

This!!!!

One thing that confuses me - pulling the jackets down. (Where did that originally come from?) Has anyone ever heard of this before? Any other case where this occurred?

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

 

[A Widow]

Has anyone read anything about a time of death? Day, night? The staff only worked during the day? If it was a double homicide, it looks more like a 'professional hit," as if putting the victims beside a pool hanging from belts was meant to send a message. Was someone waiting for Honey in her SUV or near the garage when she arrived home? Honey came home first and thus killed first? I can see the belts used in a homicide instead of ropes because it appears more personally directed. Other than a professional killing, it looks like Barry killed Honey after some fight broke out when they returned home about the same time, perhaps by accident. He then staged the scenario to look like a homicide. He wouldn't want the kids to think he killed their mother. Barry may have been 75 years old but doesn't look like a frail old man by any stretch. Honey with all her arthritic problems was likely in poorer shape upper body wise. Getting the neck into the belt loop would be difficult if it's facing you but on the other hand if the belt loop is long enough it probably wouldn't be. People hang themselves sitting on a chair so anything is possible. :scared:

 

[deugirtni]

The belts. They were on scene, and according to news reports they deceased had their heads in the belts.

As for what is in the sewer - police were pressured to investigate these deaths as a double homicide, so that's what they are doing. If this was a real murder, where a weapon may have been used for coercion, police would be searching the sewer to see if a weapon was tossed near the home. It's a huge expense to the Toronto police force to satisfy the emotional needs of a wealthy family.

To me, it only makes sense that LE would thoroughly investigate a case, cross every t and dot every i, especially a case such as this one - no matter if the police, for whatever reason, think that this was a murder/suicide, it should not preclude a complete and thorough investigation - which could potentially end up either supporting their conclusion, or opening their eyes to a different possibility(ies).

If it is protocol in a murder case to inspect nearby sewer openings for potential cast-offs, then that should be done in this case as well. They shouldn't be cutting back what they would normally do, just because it might appear to be one thing. Aren't they supposed to follow the evidence, as opposed to coming up with a predetermination and only gathering evidence that might lend support to that particular theory? I get it that LE, and perhaps especially the homicide squad, are experienced and perhaps expert, at what they do, but it's also possible that things are not always as they might seem. Imho it would be terrible, later, after the fact, when it is too late, for something to come to light, and questions to be asked about whether this or that was duly investigated, and they had to say, oh well, we didn't bother checking those things because our belief at the time was that it was a murder/suicide.

If nothing else, the family's balking at LE's initial determination and their request for LE to do a thorough investigation, will at least keep them on their toes and hopefully prevent them from missing something. Then they can potentially tell the family they're wrong, and provide proof. I'll bet in the Wayne Millard case, police are, or should be, completely embarrassed if they just took his death as how it appeared, suicide, and didn't for example, bother checking his son for GSR, etc. jmo

 

[SeesSeas]

I think some folks here need to take a moment, a breather, and re-evaluate. I cannot tell you how many times I read some form of "I know this was a murder-suicide because the police made a statement saying so" over the last few pages. The police made no such statement. It sounds like it was a preliminary theory when TPS arrived at the crime scene, and someone in the know, maybe even someone who was there, took that and spoke to a reporter. Anonymously.

I believe it's possible that when arriving at the crime scene, someone could have said "this looks like a murder-suicide". That's a natural reaction, I suppose. But TPS, in no way, shape or form, have confirmed that to the media. I also think it's unfair to say that the children are flat out rejecting the murder-suicide theory, and that TPS are appeasing them because they have money. They simply asked LE to do a thorough investigation, and refrain from leaking information that hasn't been substantiated, per their statement. That seems to be what LE are now doing.

We know very, very little in all honesty. There are so many plausible scenarios where this could have been a murder-suicide and this could have been a double-homicide. I think the only responsible place to be at this point in time is on the fence, and that's where I remain seated. Come join me, I'll share my hot cocoa. :fence:

Yes, I'm on that fence with you.
Although, my feet are dangling on the Murder-Murder side.
:fence:

 

[dotr]

Yes, I'm on that fence with you.
Although, my feet are dangling on the Murder-Murder side.
:fence:

Ditto from dotr!

 

[RAISINISBACK]

No we don't know what goes on in people's minds however the majority of murder suicides do have indicating signs prior even though most people may not realize it or ignore them. My reason for mentioning that it is surprising that the police would put this out so early in the case is that they had not spoken to friends and family at that point which is an important factor when investigating a high profile incident of someone who seemed to have a lot of potential enemies. While friends and families are unlikely to come out and say "yeah he did it", the police could have taken time to investigate if BS had depression or financial issues or if there were any tensions between the couple. But it appears they didn't do that and it was irresponsible to announce that conclusion before that or prior to the autopsy. Now police are in a bad spot as they either have to admit that they were incorrect or that the public will doubt them as they rushed to that conclusion with out concrete evidence.

BBM

How do you know they did not have concrete evidence of murder suicide? Only LE on the scene would have access to all the evidence in addition to any crime scene photos. They were the ones who actually had eyes on the bodies, the positions they were in, the condition of the bodies, if there were any scratches on BS's arms or face or elsewhere, any defensive wounds on HS, ect. Given the evidence they discovered at the scene they determined right away it was murder suicide, so I would say the evidence at the scene was pretty overwhelmingly in favor of that.

No child wants to believe their father would kill their mother. But as we have seen thousands of times, that is indeed just what he did.

Those kids did not live in the home with their parents and probably had not for many years. Of course their parents were going to put on a front that everything was all peachy when they were with their kids. After all what parents wants to dump all their problems they are having on the kids they love? The kids have no way of knowing what problems their parents were having or how deep those problems ran. Neither do the friends or any other relatives.

Once the LE in Canada jump though the hoops that the wealthy kids and high profile friends put them through I think they are going to come back with exactly the same conclusion they had from the first moment they saw the crime scene. Murder suicide. The kids may never except fully, but I think given time they will come to terms with it.

JMO

 

[deugirtni]

Again apologies for not being able to keep up with every post.. just wondered if anyone had noticed this before.. from an article written in the beginning (Dec19). He's calling it 'what we know'. So if the couple visited the architect on Wed evening, but they died on Thursday (doesn't say what time though, could've been in the wee hours just after midnight on Wednesday..), then it suggests they were not ambushed when they returned to their home on Wed eve? We know B did not show up at work on Thursday, so were they already dead? Why did they still have their coats/boots on if they died on Thursday?

What we know:

• – The Shermans died Thursday inside their 12,440 square-foot Old Colony Rd. mansion which was up for sale for $6.9 million.

http://torontosun.com/news/local-news/warmington-mystery-shrouds-deaths-of-billionaire-couple

 

[Wild Rose]

Again apologies for not being able to keep up with every post.. just wondered if anyone had noticed this before.. from an article written in the beginning (Dec19). He's calling it 'what we know'. So if the couple visited the architect on Wed evening, but they died on Thursday (doesn't say what time though, could've been in the wee hours just after midnight on Wednesday..), then it suggests they were not ambushed when they returned to their home on Wed eve? We know B did not show up at work on Thursday, so were they already dead? Why did they still have their coats/boots on if they died on Thursday?

What we know:

• – The Shermans died Thursday inside their 12,440 square-foot Old Colony Rd. mansion which was up for sale for $6.9 million.

http://torontosun.com/news/local-news/warmington-mystery-shrouds-deaths-of-billionaire-couple

Good Post! Good Questions!

 

[zencompass]

I think some folks here need to take a moment, a breather, and re-evaluate. I cannot tell you how many times I read some form of "I know this was a murder-suicide because the police made a statement saying so" over the last few pages. The police made no such statement. It sounds like it was a preliminary theory when TPS arrived at the crime scene, and someone in the know, maybe even someone who was there, took that and spoke to a reporter. Anonymously.

I believe it's possible that when arriving at the crime scene, someone could have said "this looks like a murder-suicide". That's a natural reaction, I suppose. But TPS, in no way, shape or form, have confirmed that to the media. I also think it's unfair to say that the children are flat out rejecting the murder-suicide theory, and that TPS are appeasing them because they have money. They simply asked LE to do a thorough investigation, and refrain from leaking information that hasn't been substantiated, per their statement. That seems to be what LE are now doing.

We know very, very little in all honesty. There are so many plausible scenarios where this could have been a murder-suicide and this could have been a double-homicide. I think the only responsible place to be at this point in time is on the fence, and that's where I remain seated. Come join me, I'll share my hot cocoa. :fence:

Ahh. Now that's a good cup of hot cocoa ! Thank you for this zen moment.