OH Pike County: 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered Over Custody Issue 4 Members Wagner Family Arrested#46

[Cool Cats]

Why take a mortgage against the key family properties and move the rest to a trust inWPines?

Because you asked me my question is .....
When you say "move the rest" I want to be clear what exactly you mean by "the rest". Sorry, I'm trying to research and understand this. Thankx Tiff.

 

[FrescaandSouthernComfort]

When FW and Junior purchased Flying W Farms, many, many properties were purchased. You need
to check the chain of Titles. The reference would be in the by laws of the LLC. 845 Bethel is within
the original 131 acres. Loy Run area is also included.

 

[FrescaandSouthernComfort]

Wondering... do you refer to Montgomery County Ohio or Montgomery
City in Hamilton County?

City of Montgomery, Hamilton County, Ohio.

 

[Tiff23fr]

When you say "move the rest" I want to be clear what exactly you mean by "the rest". Sorry, I'm trying to research and understand this. Thankx Tiff.

To add clarity, attached is the first page of the mortgage set with monthly payments.

CoolCats, I’m not the best at explaining, so the easiest may be to go to uslandrecords.com under Pike County. From there, pull up White Pines and the first entry is the document I attached above.



The bottom line I would like to clarify is did they in fact mortgage Flying W? FlyingW would be separate from any discussion around White Pines as far as the specific question goes.

I also added the Flying W pic from the auditor which seems to imply it was part of the land in the mortgage document.

 

[Kyshoegal]

Thanks for the info rsd. That's what I thought they were. So this question is for all. Do you think one car or multiple cars were used that night to drive down UHR and LFR right up to the residences? Or do you think they rode up a different road, dropped people off who then made their way through the woods to the homes? Anyone think ATV's involved? Horses? I'm just curious what everyone thinks on how they actually conveyed themselves to and from the scenes in the middle of the night/early morning?

I am not one of the better sleuthers on here but I had 2 questions related to this.
1. How did they get around?? Wouldn't ATV's be too loud at 1-6 am? Even in rural country? All the ones I have seen you can hear for a country mile. That does not mean they don't make quiet ones. I did think horses, but they would have to haul them there, unload and load, tie/hold them during the murders and they would have certainly left tracks. That risks someone finding a rig & trailer sitting empty and surely we would have heard something about that ?? I'm hoping as part of the investigation LE covered the distance between these crime scenes with various methods and timed out how long it took.
2. In regards to the "weed", in the beginning it was 2000 plants, then 200, now I haven't even heard it mentioned which says not an amount to speak of. SO, why all the surveillance ? If not for illegal growing, not for hunting then obviously for security right? So why would you not check them? Or have them on? Or notice if they were off? If your safety is so jeopardized you need that many cameras then shouldn't you pay attention to them?

 

[Kyshoegal]

This is fairly common. You can't make the balloon pmt. then you've basically been renting. Five years seems like a long time to save, and get your credit cleaned up. Land owners can't be a bank forever. either. It's sad. There is, something within this region, and maybe all of the U.S., idk, but it was instilled in us that you needed to own your own piece of land. Land ownership is very important. It gives security in a what is many times, a financially insecure region. If you own that land, you have a place to lay your head.

Sounds similar to the mortgage loan crisis in 2007? When mortgage companies were falsifying loan applications and making loans to people they knew could not afford the properties. Coming from a very small town you are 100% correct. It was driven into us not to rent, only buy what you can pay cash for and your land is your credit.

 

[Betty P]

I am not one of the better sleuthers on here but I had 2 questions related to this.
1. How did they get around?? Wouldn't ATV's be too loud at 1-6 am? Even in rural country? All the ones I have seen you can hear for a country mile. That does not mean they don't make quiet ones. I did think horses, but they would have to haul them there, unload and load, tie/hold them during the murders and they would have certainly left tracks. That risks someone finding a rig & trailer sitting empty and surely we would have heard something about that ?? I'm hoping as part of the investigation LE covered the distance between these crime scenes with various methods and timed out how long it took.
2. In regards to the "weed", in the beginning it was 2000 plants, then 200, now I haven't even heard it mentioned which says not an amount to speak of. SO, why all the surveillance ? If not for illegal growing, not for hunting then obviously for security right? So why would you not check them? Or have them on? Or notice if they were off? If your safety is so jeopardized you need that many cameras then shouldn't you pay attention to them?

Well, I'll try to help out.

1. The ATV theory has been bandied about for the last 3 years. I don't think it happened that way. I do think it's possible the Wagners parked some distance from the homes on Union Hill Rd at some point in order to sneak up to them. It's been theorized that, because CR1 had cameras out front that allowed him to see cars pulling up to the house, the Wagners decided to approach from the rear of CR1's home. If so, they likely parked and walked. ATM's would be too loud, too cumbersome and too slow in the dark woods. For reference, see Leonard Manley's interview in which he spoke of CR1s security cameras out front. I've posted that link so many times, my brain is fried.

2. CR1 and KR had security cameras at their homes. That has been reported in the news media. They were probably for general security purposes and also possibly to protect the alleged grow ops. Due to the time of year, neither one was likely growing any pot outdoors. Not warm enough yet, still a risk of frost.

CR1 did see the killers coming. Do a google search of the articles from last autumn about the release of preliminary autopsy reports. The recount that CR1 saw the killers coming because he managed to escape into a back bedroom where he was shot several times, once through the door.

It's believed KR was asleep when he was killed, so unable to see anything on his security cams. Because he was asleep. Hope that helps.

 

[Betty P]

This is fairly common. You can't make the balloon pmt. then you've basically been renting. Five years seems like a long time to save, and get your credit cleaned up. Land owners can't be a bank forever. either. It's sad. There is, something within this region, and maybe all of the U.S., idk, but it was instilled in us that you needed to own your own piece of land. Land ownership is very important. It gives security in a what is many times, a financially insecure region. If you own that land, you have a place to lay your head.

Balloon payments are always bad news. They never seem to work in favor of the buyer, by design. I recall the first one I encountered back in the early 1980's on a condo we considered buying. Fortunately we were soon transferred to another state, where we bought a condo instead. Our realtor there, an older experienced man, said "never take out a mortgage with a balloon payment or variable interest rate".

The Wagner's mortgage above, has a federally approved farm lending institution listed as the lender (Farm Credit Mid-America, FLCA) on some $400,000+. That seems like a different thing. That seems like Wagners cashing in on the equity in their farm property.

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachments/dfa3ac31-9342-49fb-bc65-a1905a33b3fb-jpeg.180208/

 

[Betty P]

This is fairly common. You can't make the balloon pmt. then you've basically been renting. Five years seems like a long time to save, and get your credit cleaned up. Land owners can't be a bank forever. either. It's sad. There is, something within this region, and maybe all of the U.S., idk, but it was instilled in us that you needed to own your own piece of land. Land ownership is very important. It gives security in a what is many times, a financially insecure region. If you own that land, you have a place to lay your head.

Balloon payments are always bad news. They never seem to work in favor of the buyer, by design. I recall the first one I encountered back in the early 1980's on a condo we considered buying as newlyweds. Fortunately we were soon transferred to another state, where we bought a condo instead. Our realtor there, an older experienced man, said "never take out a mortgage with a balloon payment or variable interest rate".

The Wagner's mortgage above, not sure which of those docs, has a federally approved farm lending institution listed as the lender on some $400,000. That seems like a different thing. That seems like Wagners cashing in on the equity in their farm property. The date is 2013. When did they start with the land contracts?

 

[FrescaandSouthernComfort]

Balloon payments are always bad news. They never seem to work in favor of the buyer, by design. I recall the first one I encountered back in the early 1980's on a condo we considered buying as newlyweds. Fortunately we were soon transferred to another state, where we bought a condo instead. Our realtor there, an older experienced man, said "never take out a mortgage with a balloon payment or variable interest rate".

The Wagner's mortgage above, not sure which of those docs, has a federally approved farm lending institution listed as the lender on some $400,000. That seems like a different thing. That seems like Wagners cashing in on the equity in their farm property. The date is 2013. When did they start with the land contracts?

Seems the successors of interest would come in to play in this situation. One of the prime characters
is no longer in the picture. FW vested interest in Junior's estate ( 1/2 of the balance of 2013 loan)
insurance proceeds would be more than enough to pay off the balance due on the mortgage.

 

[Tiff23fr]

Balloon payments are always bad news. They never seem to work in favor of the buyer, by design. I recall the first one I encountered back in the early 1980's on a condo we considered buying as newlyweds. Fortunately we were soon transferred to another state, where we bought a condo instead. Our realtor there, an older experienced man, said "never take out a mortgage with a balloon payment or variable interest rate".

The Wagner's mortgage above, not sure which of those docs, has a federally approved farm lending institution listed as the lender on some $400,000. That seems like a different thing. That seems like Wagners cashing in on the equity in their farm property. The date is 2013. When did they start with the land contracts?

It appears they were doing them in the early to mid 90's. Then it appears it halted in 2011.

In 2013 they took out the mortgage against the farm and a few other parcels.

Then they went back into land contracts under WhiteP in 2014.

I only read a handful of the contracts, but I didn't see a ballon payment. Possibly it's in some I didn't browse through. For example the terms in one is 286 consecutive monthly payments. However they do have a 9% interest rate and a lot of tight terms on what can and can't be done on the property.

Ballon concept to the side, I think she knows the individuals will default.

I have an opinion that the animal breeding hit its peak and then the bottom fell out. Lawsuits around the the animals they were selling certainly didn't help things. That's just my personal opinion.

 

[Kyshoegal]

Well, I'll try to help out.

1. The ATV theory has been bandied about for the last 3 years. I don't think it happened that way. I do think it's possible the Wagners parked some distance from the homes on Union Hill Rd at some point in order to sneak up to them. It's been theorized that, because CR1 had cameras out front that allowed him to see cars pulling up to the house, the Wagners decided to approach from the rear of CR1's home. If so, they likely parked and walked. ATM's would be too loud, too cumbersome and too slow in the dark woods. For reference, see Leonard Manley's interview in which he spoke of CR1s security cameras out front. I've posted that link so many times, my brain is fried.

2. CR1 and KR had security cameras at their homes. That has been reported in the news media. They were probably for general security purposes and also possibly to protect the alleged grow ops. Due to the time of year, neither one was likely growing any pot outdoors. Not warm enough yet, still a risk of frost.

CR1 did see the killers coming. Do a google search of the articles from last autumn about the release of preliminary autopsy reports. The recount that CR1 saw the killers coming because he managed to escape into a back bedroom where he was shot several times, once through the door.

It's believed KR was asleep when he was killed, so unable to see anything on his security cams. Because he was asleep. Hope that helps.

Betty P you are amazing !! I actually read the autopsys a few times so I should have said with the exception of CRSr and possibly Gary. And of course most people would be asleep at those times so no they wouldn’t see them coming. Makes perfect sense. Thank you again !

 

[Sleuthinsleuther]

Well, I'll try to help out.

1. The ATV theory has been bandied about for the last 3 years. I don't think it happened that way. I do think it's possible the Wagners parked some distance from the homes on Union Hill Rd at some point in order to sneak up to them. It's been theorized that, because CR1 had cameras out front that allowed him to see cars pulling up to the house, the Wagners decided to approach from the rear of CR1's home. If so, they likely parked and walked. ATM's would be too loud, too cumbersome and too slow in the dark woods. For reference, see Leonard Manley's interview in which he spoke of CR1s security cameras out front. I've posted that link so many times, my brain is fried.

2. CR1 and KR had security cameras at their homes. That has been reported in the news media. They were probably for general security purposes and also possibly to protect the alleged grow ops. Due to the time of year, neither one was likely growing any pot outdoors. Not warm enough yet, still a risk of frost.

CR1 did see the killers coming. Do a google search of the articles from last autumn about the release of preliminary autopsy reports. The recount that CR1 saw the killers coming because he managed to escape into a back bedroom where he was shot several times, once through the door.

It's believed KR was asleep when he was killed, so unable to see anything on his security cams. Because he was asleep. Hope that helps.

Betty do you think it’s possible the getaway driver (AW) just dropped off the perps and drove slowly down the road and then turned around and picked them up after a few min?
I can’t see all 4 W’s going to all 4 locations

 

[Betty P]

It appears they were doing them in the early to mid 90's. Then it appears it halted in 2011.

In 2013 they took out the mortgage against the farm and a few other parcels.

Then they went back into land contracts under WhiteP in 2014.

I only read a handful of the contracts, but I didn't see a ballon payment. Possibly it's in some I didn't browse through. For example the terms in one is 286 consecutive monthly payments. However they do have a 9% interest rate and a lot of tight terms on what can and can't be done on the property.

Ballon concept to the side, I think she knows the individuals will default.

I have an opinion that the animal breeding hit its peak and then the bottom fell out. Lawsuits around the the animals they were selling certainly didn't help things. That's just my personal opinion.

That sounds about right. I've read a few articles over the last few years that talked about how the specialty animals market bottomed out. Miniature critters, exotic breeds, llamas, etc. All the money was made by the people who convinced the first tranches of people to invest in breeding. Eventually, supply exceeded demand and everyone was stuck with these animals that are expensive to keep.

I think it was an article after the arrests in Cincinnati.com or Columbus Dispatch where a reporter interviewed some of the past tenants of Flying W who lost out on land contracts. At least one of them mentioned having a balloon payment, something they weren't aware was due, IIRC.

JMO, they may have had less formal means of earning extra income. The "sharecropping" scenario (for lack of a better term) occurred to me after some drug busts following the search of the farms in summer 2017. May or may not be accurate, but at the time, it seemed likely to me that CR1, being independent, owning his own property and having his little grow op, was a bur under the saddle of the Wagners.

 

[Betty P]

Betty do you think it’s possible the getaway driver (AW) just dropped off the perps and drove slowly down the road and then turned around and picked them up after a few min?
I can’t see all 4 W’s going to all 4 locations

I wondered about that ever since the arrests. I was somewhat surprised that LE charged her the same as the others, as it didn't seem likely so many people sneaked into each home to kill. Like everyone else, it seems possible she was the driver and/or lookout. She may have gone in to DR's to assist with the killings there. There were 3 people to be killed there. As for logistics of where, when and how AW assisted, I'm not sure yet. We'll find out eventually. But I can't imagine 4 people were able to sneak into Frankie's home and shoot him and Hannah G, nearly simultaneously, in the dark without awakening them or the baby. JMO, two killers were involved in that one.

 

[Merrygirl]

That would be great! My ideal trip would be to go down there, drop off a gift basket to Sheriff Reader and hang out in the coffee shop talking to the locals. After that I'd like to visit Ms. Geneva Rhoden and take her, Tony and any others who want to go out for a nice lunch or dinner. Buy her a nice potted plant or something. Same for Len Manley and his family. I think if I wanted to drive down UHR, I would contact Len and Tony to see if its ok. Then I would drive down Camp Creek Road, etc.

ETA: I would also do the cemetery tour. Load up on some nice silk flower arrangements and visit all the graves.

Lol, to do all that you would need a 3 day weekend.

 

[Caylee Advocate]

Lol, to do all that you would need a 3 day weekend.

Lol, yep and I can be the tour guide as I know each and every spot to plan the itinerary. The "coffee shop" mention did make me laugh (not at you though Betty)

 

[Tiff23fr]

A possibility of very different dynamics not considered??

The W family as it had been known financially or in status for many decades was falling. She risked the farm. The farm remains at risk until the mortgage is covered if the financial tides have not changed. JMO

"Indeed, 70% of wealthy families lose their wealth by the second generation, and a stunning 90% by the third, according to the Williams Group wealth consultancy."

 

[StrangeOne]

About Kenny and the Wagners, as you can see from this map, KR was only a few miles down the road from the Wagner's Flying W Farm.
https://expo.advance.net/img/3230a5366b/width960/faf_map2.jpeg

I'm sure Kenny and the Wagner's knew each other very well and it would be easy for the Wagner's to go stop by Kenny's camper and give Brownie treats and have Brownie get comfortable with at least one Wagner.

Over those months of planning they were "cultivating" the dogs to be familiar with them. According to the indictment they studied the Rhoden's surveillance methods including the dogs.

I don't think Kenny let anyone in at 3:00am in the morning, if he had he would have been shot out of his bunk not in it. The Wagner's either knew how to get in and planned it out, or Kenny left the camper unlocked for one of them for some reason.

Despite custody, the Wagner's could still act friendly towards Kenny and Kenny would not be thinking he was in danger. Kenny was killed perhaps in part to look like a Cartel hit and in part because he would want revenge and might suspect the Wagner's and take matters into his own hands.

They did not pick their victims based on who knew about the custody fight. It's been written in MSM articles that friends and family and even their pastor said the custody situation was contentious. LM mentioned it right from the beginning.

The Wagners shot the people they wanted to shoot and if they wanted KR2 out of the picture she would be the 9th victim. The Rhodens were under heavy surveillance, I think the Wagners had their houses bugged and knew that KR2 was not spending the night.

And I think KR2 stayed friendly with the Wagner's because of Sophia. She had no choice if she wanted to be in Sophia's life and even be her godmother.

Also, don't underestimate Jake's inside knowledge of the Rhoden's movements. Problems or not, he would still be interacting with them because of Sophia and he could text Hanna at any time under the pretext of "parenting" when in actuality he is fishing for information, along with all the other surveillance.

I think they planned very carefully to pick just the "right" night when the 8 were home "alone". If the Wagner's were just going to randomly kill whoever just happened to be sleeping over, then the murders were not as sophisticated and meticulously planned as LE makes them out to be. DeWine and Reader feel they targeted those particular 8 victims......My 2 Cents........

The W's went to great lengths so they could have been going by at odd hours. Possibly giving treats? The different times would guarantee they would be silent when they were spotted.

 

[Puzzles8]

I think this information relates to the Peterson property.
It looks like the boys bought this property on 2/4/2014 from Cecilia Ann Burgess.
I don't see original mortgage information.
They took a $ 75,000 mortgage out on 7/20/2015.
Mechanic's Lien of $ 5,925 was filed on 12/16/2016.
Sold on 3/17/2017, no price given in these records.

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