Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #101

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cluciano63 said:
If they knew who BG was...or where he was...why say “he could be in this room?” And why show a two-yr old sketch that may or may not really look like him to anyone who might see it? As it is, we all see different things in this sketch as well as the prior one.
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Good questions. I think most, if not all, of LE statements at the PC make sense if LE does not know the identity of the suspect. On a side note, I went back and listened to the Best Case Worst Case podcast about this case. The first time I heard it, the co-hosts agreed that an arrest was imminent. But I listened to it again and that part now seems to be edited out. I remember, though, that one of the co-hosts said she believed LE was closing in on the killer. But, she added, if nothing happens in the next three weeks, it [the PC] might've been a Hail Mary. That was three weeks ago.
 
tresir2012 said:
Well they were obviously allowed on walks by themselves, so do you mean sports and band practices, or social events for example? We have also seen pics of Abby fishing. Is that the sort of thing you are meaning?
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I’m asking for any consistent blocks of time where they were not supervised. Example would be “from 3-6pm each day they were home doing homework, and starting dinner”. That sort of thing. Thanks.

I want to know the routine blocks of time they were alone, and who was allowed around them.

Amateur opinion and speculation
 
Looking at the current sketch again that guys neck kind of looks like the neck of someone that lifts weights. Its thick, but not like fat/double chin thick. Its more like a neck propped up by well worked trapezius muscles. Maybe this guy spent time in jail and beefed himself up and that's part of why people aren't recognizing him?
 
I still am trying to decide whether the girls were completely random victims of opportunity on that day or were somewhat targeted. I think the only way the latter could work would be if he knew them in a general way, saw them regularly and perhaps got obsessed with one of them, but they didn't know him that well. So I am picturing him having contact via school/sports/church. Enough that he could stalk them from afar, but not close enough contact that they would discuss him with specifics, if that makes sense. In the case with Jayme Closs, all it took was him seeing her get off the school bus.

<modsnip: removed reference to another case> I keep going back to the April 22 presser and how Carter emphasized the expected shock of the perp's loved ones, the hiding in plain sight, the "could be in the room" angle. This was designed to wake people up to the fact that the perp is likely a presentable local with a good reputation and not the kind of person you'd automatically think was a violent criminal. JMO.

I'm also wondering if the comparison to how the perp may have been before the murders and afterwards is not because he may have changed noticeably in a negative way (as most would assume), but in a positive one. For example, instead of someone turning to depression, drugs, alcohol, becoming more paranoid or secretive and so on, what if that person suddenly became more devout, or more community minded, or seemed no longer weighted down by "inner demons" or deeply depressed or acting in ways which earlier had seemed rather troubling.

Does that ever happen? In terms of killers venting their rage/violent impulses, and then having a "honeymoon" period of model citizen behavior. Perhaps for years?
 
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ZoriahNZ said:
I still am trying to decide whether the girls were completely random victims of opportunity on that day or were somewhat targeted. I think the only way the latter could work would be if he knew them in a general way, saw them regularly and perhaps got obsessed with one of them, but they didn't know him that well. So I am picturing him having contact via school/sports/church. Enough that he could stalk them from afar, but not close enough contact that they would discuss him with specifics, if that makes sense. In the case with Jayme Closs, all it took was him seeing her get off the school bus.

<modsnip: removed reference to another case> I keep going back to the April 22 presser and how Carter emphasized the expected shock of the perp's loved ones, the hiding in plain sight, the "could be in the room" angle. This was designed to wake people up to the fact that the perp is likely a presentable local with a good reputation and not the kind of person you'd automatically think was a violent criminal. JMO.

I'm also wondering if the comparison to how the perp may have been before the murders and afterwards is not because he may have changed noticeably in a negative way (as most would assume), but in a positive one. For example, instead of someone turning to depression, drugs, alcohol, becoming more paranoid or secretive and so on, what if that person suddenly became more devout, or more community minded, or seemed no longer weighted down by "inner demons" or deeply depressed or acting in ways which earlier had seemed rather troubling.

Does that ever happen? In terms of killers venting their rage/violent impulses, and then having a "honeymoon" period of model citizen behavior. Perhaps for years?
Click to expand...

If he is a sociopath, he possibly wouldn’t have feelings of guilt and be unable to perceive himself as the rest of the world would. He would see everything he does as justified, although the justification might be hard to comprehend to typical thinking people.

If he has mental illness and impulse control problems, he might be ranting and raving about someone out to get him, again hard for typical thinking folks to get, and I would think he would be caught by now if he just outright disturbed like that. On the other hand, he may just be lucky and others feel sorry for him.

I don’t know, but tend to think he is controlled and focused, but sees killing as a remediation for some perceived wrong and finding obscure targets that don’t make sense to most.

So a sociopath with allusions of grandeur, maybe. Don’t know, for sure and IMO.

EYA: Yes, there are cases where a killer honeymoons- a life stress might be a reason for the re-awakening of the homicidal impulse.
 
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rainwaterstill said:
To add one more thing to the discussion: On one of the closed threads ( either 99 or 100) an OP was speculating as to what the possible motive for the murders could be. I thought that when felony crimes are committed, prosecutors and LE legally are not required to/ do not have to come up with a motive for a crime. They just have to prove that Person A committed it based on the evidence "beyond a reasonable doubt." Can someone on WS with a legal background address this? Thanks!
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Motive is not necessary in a court of law. “Intent” is important and a difference. Motive doesn’t prove guilt. Intent means purpose or action of the crime. It usually has 4 levels to help prove the crime. (Means and opportunity.) purposely, knowingly, recklessly and negligently.
 
zencompass said:
It was the use of the word "shack" that got me wondering too. Especially since the press conf. was after the arrests.

I wondered if the word was used more as a code of sorts than towards a religious angle.

This is one sadistic, vicious individual who is capable of anything monstrous.

Is L.E. looking for a connection to him with the car left for 4 hours at the old CPS building? Was he a passenger? Was he 1/2 of the couple under the bridge?
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IDK, but at this point everything and everyone is worth checking out. There's no room for tunnel vision.
jmo
 
If you are standing at the beginning of the bridge, can you see the other end?
Can a person holler at one end and hear them at the other end?
I know that nature can be noisy with wind and rustling leaves.
I remember that it was a beautiful day on 2/13/17. I actually drove to Burlington around 10 am (Carroll County) to deliver a valentine gift to my son (for his wife). I drove with my Jeep windows down and thoroughly enjoyed the sunny warm day!
However, I do not remember if it was windy.
 
Just a question in general, not neccessarily about this case:

If LE uses GEDmatch to find a suspect, and they manage to trace him right down to his parents, but they have three sons... would they be allowed to secretely collect their DNA (cig butts, plastic cups,) to see which one it is?
Or would they only be able to do that if there was just one son?
 
AliceInPain said:
Just a question in general, not neccessarily about this case:

If LE uses GEDmatch to find a suspect, and they manage to trace him right down to his parents, but they have three sons... would they be allowed to secretely collect their DNA (cig butts, plastic cups,) to see which one it is?
Or would they only be able to do that if there was just one son?
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If they didn’t get their hit, I’m sure they would. Whatever you leave behind in public is fair game. (Amateur opinion)

Amateur opinion and speculation
 
zencompass said:
It was the use of the word "shack" that got me wondering too. Especially since the press conf. was after the arrests.

I wondered if the word was used more as a code of sorts than towards a religious angle.

This is one sadistic, vicious individual who is capable of anything monstrous.

Is L.E. looking for a connection to him with the car left for 4 hours at the old CPS building? Was he a passenger? Was he 1/2 of the couple under the bridge?
Click to expand...

The Shack movie and book is based on religion so IMO it wasn’t mentioned as religious code. Carter and other LE involved in this case have made several prior references to religion and so it appears to me he’s a man of faith.

Feb 22, 2017
“As poor as this picture is," Indiana State Police Supt. Doug Carter said. "Somebody knows. And if you're watching, we'll find you. To Abby and Libby. It's my hope and prayer that you're experiencing God's promise of eternal peace."...”
UPDATE: Delphi teen records audio before murders

Jan 25, 2018
(Carter) also said he had one last message for the deceased victims of the crime.
"And now from a very humble servant, that's the most blessed guy on this planet to represent the profession I represent, to Libby and Abby: It's my hope and my prayer that you're now experiencing God's promise of eternal peace."
'Person of interest' in Delphi murder case brought back to Indiana
 
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Jabarn said:
If he is a sociopath, he possibly wouldn’t have feelings of guilt and be unable to perceive himself as the rest of the world would. He would see everything he does as justified, although the justification might be hard to comprehend to typical thinking people.

If he has mental illness and impulse control problems, he might be ranting and raving about someone out to get him, again hard for typical thinking folks to get, and I would think he would be caught by now if he just outright disturbed like that. On the other hand, he may just be lucky and others feel sorry for him.

I don’t know, but tend to think he is controlled and focused, but sees killing as a remediation for some perceived wrong and finding obscure targets that don’t make sense to most.

So a sociopath with allusions of grandeur, maybe. Don’t know, for sure and IMO.

EYA: Yes, there are cases where a killer honeymoons- a life stress might be a reason for the re-awakening of the homicidal impulse.
Click to expand...
And then there are those who come from great homes, had wonderful upbringings, and are just pure evil and take and destroy.

No rhyme or reason. Just evil.
Amateur opinion and speculation
 
ZoriahNZ said:
I still am trying to decide whether the girls were completely random victims of opportunity on that day or were somewhat targeted. I think the only way the latter could work would be if he knew them in a general way, saw them regularly and perhaps got obsessed with one of them, but they didn't know him that well. So I am picturing him having contact via school/sports/church. Enough that he could stalk them from afar, but not close enough contact that they would discuss him with specifics, if that makes sense. In the case with Jayme Closs, all it took was him seeing her get off the school bus.

<modsnip: removed reference to another case> I keep going back to the April 22 presser and how Carter emphasized the expected shock of the perp's loved ones, the hiding in plain sight, the "could be in the room" angle. This was designed to wake people up to the fact that the perp is likely a presentable local with a good reputation and not the kind of person you'd automatically think was a violent criminal. JMO.

I'm also wondering if the comparison to how the perp may have been before the murders and afterwards is not because he may have changed noticeably in a negative way (as most would assume), but in a positive one. For example, instead of someone turning to depression, drugs, alcohol, becoming more paranoid or secretive and so on, what if that person suddenly became more devout, or more community minded, or seemed no longer weighted down by "inner demons" or deeply depressed or acting in ways which earlier had seemed rather troubling.

Does that ever happen? In terms of killers venting their rage/violent impulses, and then having a "honeymoon" period of model citizen behavior. Perhaps for years?
Click to expand...

Thank you for a very thoughtful post. I tend to agree with you on all counts. I am a psychoanalyst by profession, and have considerable knowledge of psycho-sexual development. As an answer to your last question...yes, after the kill (especially if it is the first) there may be a tension release factor. The ability to fantasize about the kill can also serve as the sexually stimulating memory for a period of time thereafter. For first time murderers, if they are able to get help in some fashion to address the delusional fantasies and the deep seated rage (and this includes informal help in the form of any structure building dogma) , it could be enough to stall off another kill for a good long time. However chances are that these murderous fantasies that developed ion childhood and adolescence are very deeply ingrained, and could be re-activated again. As you can infer from my answer, I do believe these kills were sexual in motivation; a perverse sexualized murder does not necessarily include intercourse. Mutilation, decapitation, rendering a victim powerless, etc. can be so arousing as to produce orgasm.
 
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Rossymom said:
If you are standing at the beginning of the bridge, can you see the other end?
Can a person holler at one end and hear them at the other end?
I know that nature can be noisy with wind and rustling leaves.
I remember that it was a beautiful day on 2/13/17. I actually drove to Burlington around 10 am (Carroll County) to deliver a valentine gift to my son (for his wife). I drove with my Jeep windows down and thoroughly enjoyed the sunny warm day!
However, I do not remember if it was windy.
Click to expand...

This video by GH has a clear view of the walk Abby and Libby took. At the 5:22 minute mark you can see what they would have seen standing at the very start of the bridge. It's very informative. You can even just mute the commentary if you just want the visuals of walking on the bridge to the other end. As far as I can tell, the SE end of the bridge is clearly marked with yellow flags/signs, but I couldn't see them from the NW edge of the bridge (which is the one closest to the parking area) on the video at 720p HD resolution.

 
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