Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #110

[Torch Carrier]

I'm kind of laughing at this idea, but kind of not. Here's something we haven't speculated on regarding what is in front of BG's face/neck. This one is orange but it comes in green, and some people make their own. Could there be a video of the attack on some dark-website somewhere? Is that the twist?

ETA - and it's waterproof

Ever wanted a mouth mount for your GoPro? SP Gadgets have you covered - Newsshooter

in green:
https://www.amazon.com/GoPole-Chomps-Hands-Free-Mouth-Cameras/dp/B01BT7XGX0

ETA - different version: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00ODDO6A...uPWNsaWNrUmVkaXJlY3QmZG9Ob3RMb2dDbGljaz10cnVl

ETA - video:

It does look like BG has something dark in front of or in his mouth in the stills from video. Interesting!

 

[TL4S]

This kind of lines up with what I think may have been his escape. All I know about GH's suspicious man claim from a witness is the person claimed they saw the individual from the kitchen window of a residence along C.R. 300. I have no idea which residence this might be, the M family live across the road, and the old house they own (rental property being rehabbed at the time of the murders, IIRC), would likely obscure some of their view of 930. I'm going off of Google Satellite and my drive through there.

So that leaves residences further east on C.R. 300, adjacent to and east of RL's property, which I find highly unlikely. By that I mean I find it highly unlikely someone unknown to people along C.R. 300 would be walking east of the cemetery and the drop off point for A&L, and not be recognized.

I've pondered three ways BG may have fled the murder scene:

1. Through the woods, which would be the M property in the gorge, and then to the trail which leads to the MHB. He crosses paths with a witness or witnesses while walking to the former CPS property.

OR

2. He heads up the trail which heads west of the abandoned gravel pit, and up to the perimeter of the M parcel which is farm land on the south side of C.R. 300, again eventually ending up near the trailhead closest to the drop off point. He could have kept to the tree line, in which case I see it is possible someone on the M property looked out a window and saw him across their field. In this case, he would have gotten back on the main trail near to the outbuildings the M family has on that property, the ones right by the main trail and the trailhead for the nature reserve trail, mere feet from the drop off point/parking area and the park bench.

OR

3. Cemetery to C.R. 300, walks to the drop off point area, and gets back on the main trail on the way to FB. I find this highly unlikely, but I've seen that theory batted around, here.

JMO

-FD

I find it hard to believe he would take the road, too. It seems counter intuitive, but so does killing two girls, I guess. I still have all the same questions as before about the cemetery being an exit route, but IF a witness did indeed see someone coming out of there around the times of the murders, and it wasn't just the pest control guy, than it does beg the question.

 

[TL4S]

I think TL4S estimated 3 minutes.

I'm not sure I understand the question, but I don't think I estimated 3 min. for anything. I could be confused though. If we're looking for the time of the SC photo to the CS, than I think I might have said closer to 30 minutes.

ETA: @tresir2012 is correct, I did estimate 3 min. But that's from the south end of the bridge to the CS via the creek, which I also think could take longer if it's difficult to transverse.

 

[tresir2012]

Maps with measurements. Since I don't know exact routes and terrain, these are only estimates. It takes approx. 30 min to hike a mile, and there are 5280 feet in a mile. Again, times are approximate.

M1 - ~ 3 min. From south end of bridge, across creek via sandbar to the CS

M2 - ~11 min. From south end of the bridge, back across bridge, and through the woods to CS

M3 - ~30 min. From CPS lot along trail to south end of bridge

M4 - ~12 min. From cemetery through the woods to north end of bridge and then across

M5 - ~3 min. From CS to cemetery

Are there other routes anyone wants measured?

Post number 13, M1 and M5 both approx 3 mins

 

[TL4S]

Wow. If 15 mins, starting at pic to point where found took some time. How long do you estimate it took to walk from photo site to remains site? Doesn’t sound like to me to be enough time to control one girl and SA the other, or both? No SA??

Edit to correct some auto corrects lol

Do you mean the time between the snap chat photo to the crime scene? I would guess that's maybe around 20-30 minutes. The witness statements are the wrench in how long I think he spent with the girls. If all the sightings are accurate, than I think he could have probably spent up to 10 minutes with them at the CS, giving enough time for a SA, possibly. But I think it's just as possible that he killed them and left within a very short few minutes.

 

[tresir2012]

I find it hard to believe he would take the road, too. It seems counter intuitive, but so does killing two girls, I guess. I still have all the same questions as before about the cemetery being an exit route, but IF a witness did indeed see someone coming out of there around the times of the murders, and it wasn't just the pest control guy, than it does beg the question.

I think he could have left the cemetery and gone along the road to the trail entrance then back on the trail or joined the trail at any point in between that. Maybe he was walking to CPS initially then called his lift who said they would be at Freedom Bridge parking area, so he then joined the trail. MOO.

 

[TL4S]

Post number 13, M1 and M5 both approx 3 mins

Okay, you're right, I did estimate 3 min., but that is from the south end of the bridge and across the creek. (And that time could be longer depending on the difficulty of the terrain and creek crossing). I'm thinking the person's question was how long between the SC photo (north end of the bridge) to the CS? Apologies if I'm not understanding correctly.

 

[tresir2012]

Okay, you're right, I did estimate 3 min., but that is from the south end of the bridge and across the creek. (And that time could be longer depending on the difficulty of the terrain and creek crossing). I'm thinking the person's question was how long between the SC photo (north end of the bridge) to the CS? Apologies if I'm not understanding correctly.

No prob. I can't even remember what I was referring to without going back to check.

ETA, Ah - I was answering how long from photo site to CS rather than photo time to CS. Photo site being BG photo site as opposed to SC or BG photo time. Photo site I took to mean the south end of bridge. Confusing huh?

 

[tresir2012]

Your measurements seem to be helping here. Nice work.

If FSG and BG are two different people, an important witness was left alive.

They are aren't they? FSG is about 70 and BG is 18-40.
However, there seems to be a few witnesses luckily.
And, most important of all, Libby's video.

 

[TL4S]

MOO FSG was at the Mears Parking entrance at 3:14 since he ran into DG at 3:14.

I thought I'd read that FSG saw the same person at 2:52 (Mears) and again at 3:02 (FB), so I guess I figured he'd walked from the Mears parking area to the FB area and back again, running into DG then (again, the timing fits). This is why I don't like basing theories solely on witness statements that I can't verify, though. In any case, IMO, the sightings do seem to fit within a timeline, for whatever it's worth.

 

[HEY YOU!]

agree. and yet, I have another theory that conflicts with this that cannot be explained away yet, either.

What is your theory?

 

[tresir2012]

I thought I'd read that FSG saw the same person at 2:52 (Mears) and again at 3:02 (FB), so I guess I figured he'd walked from the Mears parking area to the FB area and back again, running into DG then (again, the timing fits). This is why I don't like basing theories solely on witness statements that I can't verify, though. In any case, IMO, the sightings do seem to fit within a timeline, for whatever it's worth.

Yeah 2.52 was just a few metres north of the meeting point, which means BG was on the trail at that point. Now I am trying to remember what time was the sighting of BG leaving the cemetery (GH source) ? Anyone remember?

 

[MJPeony]

I may still be a numb-brain this morning and not fully woken up, but aren’t all of these conclusions- timing of witness sightings, and locations of BG sightings, and then crime time-frame conclusions drawn- based on the assumption that OBG sightings are still relevant? If we are to believe LE, OBG is no longer a suspect/disregard and therefore if any of these witness sightings were of him, they are not very relevant to the crime time-line. I may be missing something though.

MOO

 

[TL4S]

I may still be a numb-brain this morning and not fully woken up, but aren’t all of these conclusions- timing of witness sightings, and locations of BG sightings, and then crime time-frame conclusions drawn- based on the assumption that OBG sightings are still relevant? If we are to believe LE, OBG is no longer a suspect/disregard and therefore if any of these witness sightings were of him, they are not very relevant to the crime time-line. I may be missing something though.

MOO

I've wondered the same. Problem is, we don't know who saw what, and which sketch was based of them, if any. I don't know where these very specific sighting times came from, as far as how they know the specific times, etc.

I'm not convinced the sightings are relevant, but it was interesting to see the timeline working so well.

Like I said before, my own thoughts are actually based more on the idea that I don't think 30 min. went by between the SC photo and the bridge video.

 

[HEY YOU!]

I may still be a numb-brain this morning and not fully woken up, but aren’t all of these conclusions- timing of witness sightings, and locations of BG sightings, and then crime time-frame conclusions drawn- based on the assumption that OBG sightings are still relevant? If we are to believe LE, OBG is no longer a suspect/disregard and therefore if any of these witness sightings were of him, they are not very relevant to the crime time-line. I may be missing something though.

MOO

I am just thinking that BG must have changed his appearance at one point. So perhaps he still had on coat but not hat etc. and then after being seen maybe discarded coat, hat scarf etc or put in backpack so he appeared different later. Maybe this goes to press conference remark that BG 'made mistakes.' I would wonder why he felt comfortable walking on the path after such a horrific crime. All the trouble for disguise only to be seen leaving area. In my opinion, BG is the same as video and new sketch just not wearing a disguise. I wonder what he did with the clothes he wore that day?

 

[Thelastleg]

I may still be a numb-brain this morning and not fully woken up, but aren’t all of these conclusions- timing of witness sightings, and locations of BG sightings, and then crime time-frame conclusions drawn- based on the assumption that OBG sightings are still relevant? If we are to believe LE, OBG is no longer a suspect/disregard and therefore if any of these witness sightings were of him, they are not very relevant to the crime time-line. I may be missing something though.

MOO

My reasoning is that although LE said to disregard the OBG sketch, the person on the bridge in the video, the OGB Sketch and the New Sketch are all the same person. I think they realised that the OBG Sketch was based on the witness statement of the actual Perp, who described what Bridge guy, himself, had been wearing. Then a new witness came forward and gave LE details of a person leaving the trail, however he looked different to the perp as he had disgarded the disguise over clothing etc at this stage. Don't know what he did with the clothes. Perhaps he had a back pack under the baggy jacket and was able to put the outer clothing into that and casually slung it over his should to dispose of away from the Crime Scene. The lay witness may have gave them information that contradicted what the Perp had made in his statement. This is just my opinion but it makes sense of why LE changed direction in their strategy.

 

[HEY YOU!]

My reasoning is that although LE said to disregard the OBG sketch, the person on the bridge in the video, the OGB Sketch and the New Sketch are all the same person. I think they realised that the OBG Sketch was based on the witness statement of the actual Perp, who described what Bridge guy, himself, had been wearing. Then a new witness came forward and gave LE details of a person leaving the trail, however he looked different to the perp as he had disgarded the disguise over clothing etc at this stage. Don't know what he did with the clothes. Perhaps he had a back pack under the baggy jacket and was able to put the outer clothing into that and casually slung it over his should to dispose of away from the Crime Scene. The lay witness may have gave them information that contradicted what the Perp had made in his statement. This is just my opinion but it makes sense of why LE changed direction in their strategy.

I agree, this explains a lot. That being said, I do hope they arrest him with enough to convict. Or that he does have a bit of conscience left as stated in press conference and comes forward to admit his guilt. The fact that he walked away from this crime on the actual paths means it deeply affected him even if he didn't think it would. He must have been full of a dark plan to kill these girls but after must have been in a tough mental state. So much so he forgot to hide himself from others after the crime. Was that the mistake that was mentioned?

 

[tresir2012]

I may still be a numb-brain this morning and not fully woken up, but aren’t all of these conclusions- timing of witness sightings, and locations of BG sightings, and then crime time-frame conclusions drawn- based on the assumption that OBG sightings are still relevant? If we are to believe LE, OBG is no longer a suspect/disregard and therefore if any of these witness sightings were of him, they are not very relevant to the crime time-line. I may be missing something though.

MOO

I think it boils down to what the witnesses think they saw. They saw someone at these times who has not come forward. That is the important thing to bear in mind. We have the BG video of the guy. Presumably the witnesses have all seen that and said yes I saw him coming out of the cemetery, at the FB, on the trail etc. Then they sat down with a sketch artist.

 

[MJPeony]

I think it boils down to what the witnesses think they saw. They saw someone at these times who has not come forward. That is the important thing to bear in mind. We have the BG video of the guy. Presumably the witnesses have all seen that and said yes I saw him coming out of the cemetery, at the FB, on the trail etc. Then they sat down with a sketch artist.

One of the things that’s been bothering me is that the video of BG was released just a couple of days after the murder to the public. So I feel like any witness descriptions of someone they saw that either looked suspicious, or who fit the description of who they thought they should be looking for was just that- trying to fit someone they saw with an image of who LE put out there from the beginning on video (or still shot at the time). The sketch was released months later, and aggregated from more than one person.

As we’ve discussed here before, it’s SO hard to remember the face and body and clothing of a random person that you were not specifically trying to “notice” when asked to recall them later. At best you get close. But many people (most I might argue) just have some vague idea and then try to fit in pieces with a sketch artist.

So the problem I have is that I feel the witness descriptions taken multiple days and weeks later would have been highly influenced by the video still shot. Whether the witness meant to or not. I just don’t have confidence that the subconscious of a witness wouldn’t start “remembering” characteristics of a stranger they saw that were swayed by the still image.

All to say- I can’t being myself to put much stock into every sighting of an OBG. Sure, someone probably saw the guy we all see in the bridge video (who definitely resembles that first sketch LE put out)- I don’t doubt that. But I have a hard time believing ALL of the sightings of a guy looking like that were necessarily accurate.

And then you have the possibility of some of the witness sightings of OBG are deceptive on purpose, and therefore not accurate.

Also, I’m personally not on board yet with the timeline that concludes the crime took place in 15 minutes. Which, as recently demonstrated, is what could legitimately be concluded if all of these supposed BG sightings were accurate. I don’t see that 15 minute time span very realistic.

So overall I’m not able to say with any confidence the recent timeline makes sense. All MOO. But I’m certainly impressed with all of the detailed discussion and maps and such. It’s very hard to keep track of all the “time stamps” and locations and you guys have done a great job.

MOO.

 

[Yellow Rose]

Always praying that today is the day! And definitely just trying to keep up with the number of threads!