Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #120

[sunsetbeach]

Part 2 of Down The Hill Podcast is up.

‎Down The Hill: The Delphi Murders on Apple Podcasts

 

[sunsetbeach]

They have an upcoming special on Delphi.

Bonus Drone Video: Mary I Gerard Nature Preserve / Monon High Bridge

 

[Falling Down]

Real good thoughts FD! The last sentence you wrote is key:

'I want this case solved, a killer is on the loose here in the Midwest, and he went through all that trouble to kill two girls.'

Why did he go through all that trouble - and risks. He chose (did he?) a remote park area (remote? But then it's a snow day and kids/folks are out there. It is rather warm that day) to find a victim (two?) and to either assault them or murder them or both.

What was the motive? Thrill? Something happened and he had to silence the girls? How is the situation different now, than it was before the murder? Is there any difference? Besides the family situation changing by murdering the girls, what else changed? Delphi? The park? The bridge? What?

I know these are no new questions. However, if the killer is somewhat local (Delphi +-60 miles around), and this (a gruesome double murder outside in the woods) never happened in the area, then what happened, that made it happen?
Somebody moved to the area? From where and why? Or somebody visiting? Again, from where and why? Is there anything special about the area? The park? The bridge? Delphi? Indiana?

One thing I ran into are these Indiana Gov. approved Legacy Projects. It is a silly thought, but since Delphi and the surroundings are very heritage devoted, did someone try to create their own legacy in a very bizarre and evil way?

ALL IMO
-Nin

I've wondered myself Nin, there's a possibility that with the publicity surrounding preservation of the bridge, which has been profiled in local media and in the news out of Indianapolis (Indy is a medium-sized metro by U.S. standards, their news has quite a reach here in Indiana and into the surrounding states), that BG wanted to make his own "history", and that it would forever be attached to the bridge and the hiking area.

I firmly believe the attention the bridge has gotten in the media is part of why BG picked it for his crimes. Secondary to that, the terrain there aided the carrying out of his fantasy. Very well could be he's seen the bridge area profiled within local media, and checked it out at some point in the past, noting how people behaved there and the frequency of visitors, that sort of thing.

JMO

 

[Falling Down]

Thanks for the information. I find maps to be one of the most helpful tools available!

So before Hoosier Heartland Highway was there, where were the access roads to the CPS building? Was it where 300 meets with Main St.?

I agree that BG was likely familiar with the 300 rd area. To me, it makes the most sense that he lived on or traveled that road on a regular basis, which meant he knew about the bridge and various parking. I know it isn't a heavily traveled road, but I think it's possible he was already there for another reason when he saw the girls dropped off.

Attached file I cropped from a Google Earth image taken in late 2010, it shows the old alignment(s) for C.R. 300, old IN 25, the CPS building, and the business(s?) located by the CPS building.

The area looks completely different now compared to then, and the CPS building was razed in mid-2018.

Edit: I will add another image to this post, shortly.

Three circles on the 2nd image I'll use as reference points pertinent to the case:

1. Red circle is roughly where the berm now is, the berm was created from the soil excavated from building the highway. On top of that berm is a parking area adjacent to Freedom Bridge.

2. Green circle is roughly where the vehicle LE mentioned last April in the PC, would have been parked on the day of the murders.

3. Yellow circle is roughly where the trailhead is now for the MHB trail. By the yellow circle you can see the trail, which was the old RR RoW, and an indication of where the old railroad siding was into Andersons. Norfolk Southern now accesses Andersons from the north side of the property.

 

[TL4S]

Attached file I cropped from a Google Earth image taken in late 2010, it shows the old alignment(s) for C.R. 300, old IN 25, the CPS building, and the business(s?) located by the CPS building.

The area looks completely different now compared to then, and the CPS building was razed in mid-2018.

Edit: I will add another image to this post, shortly.

Wow, it's hardly recognizable! Thanks!

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I've read and researched a lot of info about IK and his known tactics. Yes, he would often times park his vehicle at a different spot than where, say, "'most" people would.

Post #7 in the "Possible Sightings" thread for IK is, in my mind, a perfect example of how a killer would target people out in a wooded and/or secluded area, I believe it's a Keyes sighting/encounter and shows how a killer could creep up on a person or a couple to feel them out for an attack:

Possible Sightings



Again in my mind this indicates a substantial amount of planning, and some knowledge of the terrain beforehand. Keyes targeted people in the woods who fell into his "trap", a secluded area where he could get a victim or victims away from quickly to an area where he would torture, sexually assault, and murder his victims. Abduct, move them away from the abduction point quickly to a spot he had selected beforehand, then he would do his deeds. I believe BG used a very similar thought process in the Delphi case, with the big exception being A&L were in a place where they could be found fairly easily.

The SE end of the MHB was BG's trap, so long as his potential victim(s) stayed put and didn't get off of the bridge and away from it.

JMO

Do you think the Delphi killer is a Keyes wanna-be?

 

[Falling Down]

Do you think the Delphi killer is a Keyes wanna-be?

Killers often times emulate, and take cues from, other killers, killers they admire, etc.

I'll say this much, IMO this killer went through a lot of trouble to kill the girls, way more trouble than most of the other cases I've sleuthed, cases going back to the 70's. This one really bothers me because of the creek, and part of the reason why it bothers me is I spend a lot of time in the outdoors hiking and a creek is a natural barrier people would avoid as a general rule on a chilly February day.

BG, like Keyes, has to be in at least decent physical shape to have pulled off this set of crimes. Keyes was more a physical specimen than probably most SK's, but at any rate BG had to be in a reasonable level of fitness to be out in the elements than day, then to cross the bridge, then the creek, and then to carry out the murders.

JMO

 

[stattlich1]

In the video on page one, Doug Carter states, in reference to the Delphi Case, beginning at 11:00 or so, at 11:14 "Either one of these individuals, or a group, whatever that may be that were involved in this"

It has been my contention, MOO, and this wording appears to me to clearly support it, that there was more than one perp involved in the murders of A&L. I'd like to see what a voice/body language analysis expert would have to say about what I perceive to be some discomfort that arises in these fine gentlemen when the wording comes out. It appears to me that "Either one of these individuals" was a pretty clear factual statement, immediately followed up by "or a group" and "whatever that might be that were involved in this", seemingly in an attempt to soften the original statement pointing to two people.

IMO, it is apparent there are two perps involved, and ISP knows who they are. They are asking for one of them to come forward and do the right thing.

I find it quite interesting.

Thanks for re-opening the thread.

 

[heartgoesout]

In the video on page one, Doug Carter states, in reference to the Delphi Case, beginning at 11:00 or so, at 11:14 "Either one of these individuals, or a group, whatever that may be that were involved in this"

It has been my contention, MOO, and this wording appears to me to clearly support it, that there was more than one perp involved in the murders of A&L. I'd like to see what a voice/body language analysis expert would have to say about what I perceive to be some discomfort that arises in these fine gentlemen when the wording comes out. It appears to me that "Either one of these individuals" was a pretty clear factual statement, immediately followed up by "or a group" and "whatever that might be that were involved in this", seemingly in an attempt to soften the original statement pointing to two people.

IMO, it is apparent there are two perps involved, and ISP knows who they are. They are asking for one of them to come forward and do the right thing.

I find it quite interesting.

Thanks for re-opening the thread.

Some think he was referring back to when he was discussing the Flora fire culprit. I have not listened to it to make a judgement.

 

[PezCandy]

In the video on page one, Doug Carter states, in reference to the Delphi Case, beginning at 11:00 or so, at 11:14 "Either one of these individuals, or a group, whatever that may be that were involved in this"

It has been my contention, MOO, and this wording appears to me to clearly support it, that there was more than one perp involved in the murders of A&L. I'd like to see what a voice/body language analysis expert would have to say about what I perceive to be some discomfort that arises in these fine gentlemen when the wording comes out. It appears to me that "Either one of these individuals" was a pretty clear factual statement, immediately followed up by "or a group" and "whatever that might be that were involved in this", seemingly in an attempt to soften the original statement pointing to two people.

IMO, it is apparent there are two perps involved, and ISP knows who they are. They are asking for one of them to come forward and do the right thing.

I find it quite interesting.

Thanks for re-opening the thread.

Ive never heard this before so thanks for posting, I’ve felt in my gut that there were more than one person was involved but really hard to say due to the limited info. Imo I think you do have a valid point in LE possibly knowing who the perp/s are but waiting on a confession. But it’s the billboards all over the country that throws me thru a loop. So confusing!

 

[stattlich1]

Some think he was referring back to when he was discussing the Flora fire culprit. I have not listened to it to make a judgement.

The discussion bounced back to the Delphi case prior to him making the comments.

 

[Falling Down]

In the video on page one, Doug Carter states, in reference to the Delphi Case, beginning at 11:00 or so, at 11:14 "Either one of these individuals, or a group, whatever that may be that were involved in this"

It has been my contention, MOO, and this wording appears to me to clearly support it, that there was more than one perp involved in the murders of A&L. I'd like to see what a voice/body language analysis expert would have to say about what I perceive to be some discomfort that arises in these fine gentlemen when the wording comes out. It appears to me that "Either one of these individuals" was a pretty clear factual statement, immediately followed up by "or a group" and "whatever that might be that were involved in this", seemingly in an attempt to soften the original statement pointing to two people.

IMO, it is apparent there are two perps involved, and ISP knows who they are. They are asking for one of them to come forward and do the right thing.

I find it quite interesting.

Thanks for re-opening the thread.

Makes me wonder why two sketches have been released, and LE have not yanked one or the other. Is there some significance to this?

JMO

 

[stattlich1]

Makes me wonder why two sketches have been released, and LE have not yanked one or the other. Is there some significance to this?

JMO

My opinion, Yes there is significance to it. It is clear to me. Each person can watch the vid and make their own assessment of it. MOO, it is absolutely clear what he said, and it is absolutely clear it was in reference to the A&L case. In fact, MOO, it is obvious how he appears to try to soften, backtrack, lead the comment elsewhere, call it what you wish.

 

[PaulaDC]

So I've read there's no way to enhance the video of BG. But I just read/saw this and it gave me hope. Technology is ever changing.
Someone used neural networks to upscale a famous 1896 video to 4k quality (Updated)

 

[JudgeJudi]

In the video on page one, Doug Carter states, in reference to the Delphi Case, beginning at 11:00 or so, at 11:14 "Either one of these individuals, or a group, whatever that may be that were involved in this"

It has been my contention, MOO, and this wording appears to me to clearly support it, that there was more than one perp involved in the murders of A&L. I'd like to see what a voice/body language analysis expert would have to say about what I perceive to be some discomfort that arises in these fine gentlemen when the wording comes out. It appears to me that "Either one of these individuals" was a pretty clear factual statement, immediately followed up by "or a group" and "whatever that might be that were involved in this", seemingly in an attempt to soften the original statement pointing to two people.

IMO, it is apparent there are two perps involved, and ISP knows who they are. They are asking for one of them to come forward and do the right thing.

I was about to post something similar after listening to Doug Carter’s comment at 11:15 in the video. To me it definitely seemed like a slip of the tongue that he attempted to subtly walk back.

I started considering more than one person’s involvement after the second sketch was released in 2019. LE had a video and voice recording from the beginning and had interviewed several “witnesses”. I can’t reconcile how the 2 sketches can be so different unless there were 2 people. I went back and listened again to every presser and all the interviews with various officers and it was interesting how many times “person or persons” was mentioned or alluded to.

DC said “Please keep in mind that the person talking is one person and is the person on the bridge with the girls. This not two people speaking”, and yet it is OBG who looks like BG, not NBG. He added that they believe the new sketch , “… is the person responsible for the murders of these two little girls”. It was also stated that the first sketch in July 2017 was now considered “secondary”. There has to be a primary suspect if there is a secondary suspect.

 

[watcher9]

I've read and researched a lot of info about IK and his known tactics. Yes, he would often times park his vehicle at a different spot than where, say, "'most" people would.

Post #7 in the "Possible Sightings" thread for IK is, in my mind, a perfect example of how a killer would target people out in a wooded and/or secluded area, I believe it's a Keyes sighting/encounter and shows how a killer could creep up on a person or a couple to feel them out for an attack:

Possible Sightings



Again in my mind this indicates a substantial amount of planning, and some knowledge of the terrain beforehand. Keyes targeted people in the woods who fell into his "trap", a secluded area where he could get a victim or victims away from quickly to an area where he would torture, sexually assault, and murder his victims. Abduct, move them away from the abduction point quickly to a spot he had selected beforehand, then he would do his deeds. I believe BG used a very similar thought process in the Delphi case, with the big exception being A&L were in a place where they could be found fairly easily.

The SE end of the MHB was BG's trap, so long as his potential victim(s) stayed put and didn't get off of the bridge and away from it.

JMO

I have always believed this is the way it happened. No one the girls knew. If he were a local person, LE would have found him in these three years. It could very well be someone who moves around and can make a quick assessment of the area and the victims before making his move. This is why I am leaning more towards a serial killer or one in the making.

For the record, I still think there could be a connection to the murders of the Evansdale IA cousins, Elizabeth Cook and Lyric Collins, after MJK was eliminated by LE.

When I read your post, it reminded me of Gary Michael Hilton, another serial killer, who used the same sort of methods to find and abduct his victims. In three cases where he was convicted, GMH found his victims in the forests of the Appalachian Trail from NC to FL. He also tortured his victims before murdering and beheading them. There are many other victims he may have killed. At least he's in prison now on death row.
But there are more killers out there that may use this same method. Here is a link to GMH threads in the WS Serial Killers forum where you can read more about him.

Gary M Hilton

 

[cluciano63]

Jmo but I do not believe LE has any idea who killed the girls, or if more than one person is involved. Nothing they say, much less do, makes me think they are any closer. And as far as coming forward to confess to child murders...I sure hope they are not expecting that to happen.

Jmo

 

[Mike Britton]

I can’t reconcile how the 2 sketches can be so different unless there were 2 people.

The first sketch may have been a composite (of several people). The second appears to be a unique individual. In other words, the ratio of people-to-sketch was different in the old guy sketch than in the young sketch.

 

[Mike Britton]

Jmo but I do not believe LE has any idea who killed the girls

Well, they probably have many ideas, but no physical evidence validating them at the scene.

I bet all our POIs have been discussed between them. How could they not?

 

[Awsi Dooger]

The conclusion I've come to is there's a very high likelihood BG not only knows the bridge area and areas immediately around C.R. 300, the "area in question" in this case, but he knew it before the highway opened in 2014.

Very interesting topic. I still think he's a non-local who searched for an isolated area without cameras and where a victim was easily trapped. I believe he may have had more than one location picked out and simply waited for an opportunity to present itself at any of them, while he was there hunting.

We tend to give the criminal too much credit and assign the result to his absolute intention. That is malarkey. They have no idea how anything will unfold, including how the victim(s) will react. They have to make a series of calculations along the way, many in very short time frame. Then either go or abort. I guarantee in the EAR case that DeAngelo went home furious time and again when his original target didn't happen for any number of reasons, including something innocuous like a car parked where it had never been parked during his reconnaissance.

But if Bridge Guy did know the Monon High area previously, instead of discovering it recently online, then absolutely there is great chance he remembered it from the pre-State Road 25 and Freedom Bridge days, and merely operated accordingly on February 13th, 2017, just as he would have 10 years or more earlier. That aspect is seldom if ever discussed.

I know it applies to me on my vacations throughout the country. I like to revisit former spots from trips with my parents decades ago. Frankly I always want to the areas look and function the same as from my memory. If that is not the case I take note of it but I always proceed the same way I would have. I approach from the angle that contains the memories. I park in the comfortable spot, even if it means a longer and more strenuous walk. I traipse and photograph along the familiar path. Only if they physically prevent me from doing what I want to do, then I make annoying adjustments.

Otherwise:

* I agree with the comment that law enforcement press conferences only happen when they are seeking information from the public. Great point. It is the reason I almost hope it doesn't happen on the anniversary or any time soon. Less can be more. The remarks in that recent law enforcement video interview were so pathetic and inept I almost hope they were intentionally that way, to allow impression of befuddlement and nothing going on behind the scenes. How else can I interpret repeated use of such biggies as, "We just need one tip," and "I'm convinced it's a combination of the two sketches."

Nobody can be that bad. At least I hope not. I'd love for Doug Carter to announce an arrest one day while describing everything they had to do to maintain face while it was taking shape.

* Carter was absolutely describing both the Delphi and Flora cases when he said, "Either one..." It was not a slip up or a nod toward multiple offenders in Delphi. It was pure Doug Carter lingo... blending topics and dispensing confusion as a rule. You have to listen to him with translation in mind

* Both podcast series are valuable contributions. "Scene of the Crime" is like an enhanced audio timeline with some new material. "Down the Hill" is put together from a larger company so naturally they have more resources, and devoted them to visiting Delphi for local interviews, ones that are weaved together toward what everyone was thinking at a given time