Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #107

[Cutiekitty]

I totally agree, although logic takes a backseat sometimes. If his intent was abduction or assault, why would he stage the attack at the tail end of the bridge and not wait until they came back across?

All I can think he saw an opportunity, was aware of what was below the bridge, and took a chance. I kind of lean toward the girls running across the creek, too. If so, why didn’t he just turn tail and get out of there?

I’ve had the same questions.

 

[MizStery]

MOO Maybe he did intend a north side ambush and girls just kept hanging out on the bridge, as they went slow it started pushing his timeline and knowing the area well when he got impatient he decided to go get them under control and cross the creek.

What I picture is the girls waiting for him to either turn around or pass them at the SE end of the bridge.

I always thought BG was quick & agile and would use the element of surprise and knock one of the girls off balance bruising & stunning her. I can imagine his ruthlessness would be evident from the use of tie wraps for securing victims hands to cruel intimidation to manipulate either of his victims.

After forcefully securing their hands I can imagine him ruthlessly herding them across the creek to the secluded CS. I believe his viscous and intimidating demeanor was how he was able to both get in and then equally quickly able to exit the CS.

I am so sorry to write this. It makes me sick to my stomach to even contemplate this evil sick soulless man. There is justice coming for Libby and Abby and BG faces not only an earthy harsh sentence for their murders but an eternity of punishment and suffering.

MOO

I somehow see BG as a perpetrator whose abduction mirrored Zak’s from the Holly Bobo Case. I do not believe BG and Zak had the same MO but the same cruel sadistic fueled fantasies.

 

[sunshineray]

I don't know if this was ever discussed before. If you zoom in on the BG photos, to his feet, on one of the frames it looks like there could be a faint stripe on his right footwear. This news article talking about the bomb threat and the Twitter showing evidence to be analysed are from the same day. Anyone think it's possible that bomb threat at the Indiana Packers plant and police walking with "evidence" that looks like the boots (with white banding at ankle area) they wear in that work place could really have been part of the Delphi investigation? There had been another bomb threat there previously but someone was arrested and charged for it. No one was charged though, that I can find, for the threat on that day shortly after the murders. Just something I cane across and thought was interesting.

UPDATED: Police: Bomb threat called in to Indiana Packers in Delphi

Twitter

ISP: Delphi Homicide Investigation

 

[TL4S]

I’ve had the same questions.

It's always possible the girls made a break for it and ran. But if his weapon and/or threats wasn't enough to keep them from running, then I'd assume he'd have had to catch and wrestle one or both of them down on the other side of the creek. That means DNA, IMO. And a loud, chaotic chase through the water. It also likely means a wet phone. JMO

If BG had to run through the creek after the girls, and maybe wrestle them down, he probably would have been a mess. I think this scenario would have left a lot of evidence for LE. JMO

 

[somequestions]

Locational analysis of Delphi murders(opinion only):

In order to emphasize my points I am going to suggest that the Delphi, Indiana case is possibly linked to the Evansdale, Iowa case. There is no evidence to suggest this is the case, but it is hard to analyze any sort of pattern unless you have at least two points of interest.

The main question in Delphi, Indiana case is "Why, once the murderer got the girls(Abigail Williams and Liberty German) across the creek, did he not continue with them to his vehicle and leave the area?" With the Monon High Bridge area being towards the outside of town, I think it could be because the murderer thinks since he is already in a remote area, the Monon High Bridge area is the best place to commit the crime. This could also suggest he is familiar with the Monon High Bridge but not with the surrounding area.

The main question in the Evansdale, Iowa case is "Why did the murderer drive the girls' bodies to the Seven Bridges Wildlife Area?" The Meyers Lake park in Evansdale where both girls(Lyric Cook and Elizabeth Collins) were taken from is in a much more urban part of town and near an expressway exit. I think this could suggest, because of his level of comfort in kidnapping two girls in the middle of the day from a more populated area, that he is more familiar with the Evansdale, Iowa area than with the Delphi, Indiana area.

In both cases police believe the killer is local to the area. I think the evidence is stronger that the killer is local to the Evansdale, Iowa area than to the Delphi, Indiana area. Unfortunately there is not a picture of a suspect in the Evansdale, Iowa case, but there is in the Delphi, Indiana case.

So to conclude about the only theory you can make concerning a possible link between the two crimes is that maybe the killer is a truck driver who lives in or near the Evansdale, Iowa area. And this is only if the two crimes are linked to begin with.

 

[susiQ]

I'm here sitting in my own little world thinking on this in the simplest of terms. No abduction intended. Just killing and getting out. Given the topography and parking areas in relation to the CS, to darn complicated and at high risk of being seen by someone. I without a doubt believe his intention was to corner them at the south end of the bridge. Nowhere to go but "down the hill." BG knew that. He also knew where to cross the creek at it's lowest point. He knew RL's land and he knew how to get out without being seen. He likely knew the Mears' property too. He may even have known that RL was "out and about," and having a cold one at a local watering hole (speculation). I've never forgotten the walk through interview with RL on his property where he talks about how his kids use to play down there. Well, his kids have friends (all grown up now), RL has friends whose kids likely played down there too and they are all grown up now. If I were investigating this, I would track down those "acquaintances" and find out what they're up to these days. If they have any connections to the methamphetamine underworld of Delphi and surrounding area, take a better look. See who was not in prison at the time, see who got snitched on and did spend time in prison while someone else got off and dig a little deeper into that. Of course this is all speculation, but until I KNOW LE has investigated this angle I will not believe they have done ALL they can. Or, perhaps that's what the PC was all about that threw everyone into a bit of a tailspin? I do hope they're on the right track this time around. All MOO.

 

[PaulaDC]

Does anyone know who's car that Kelsi German drove to the bridge to drop off the girls?

 

[TheVisual]

I totally agree, although logic takes a backseat sometimes. If his intent was abduction or assault, why would he stage the attack at the tail end of the bridge and not wait until they came back across?
All I can think he saw an opportunity, was aware of what was below the bridge, and took a chance. I kind of lean toward the girls running across the creek, too. If so, why didn’t he just turn tail and get out of there?

If he had not chased them across the water then he would have had to have come back "up the hill", across the bridge and down the entrance to get to his car. Still wonder if maybe he was parked on the road below "down the hill" and then came up on the girls and started down the bridge and made a u-turn and came back at them wielding a weapon and ordered them "down the hill".

 

[JnRyan]

As long as LE can get the tips to keep coming in they can justify the personnel assigned to this case. But sometimes it baffles me how LE can send in an army on one case and let others go stone cold. Marina Boelter of Bloomington IN went missing on New Year's Eve 2014 and I doubt ISP has spent as many man hours on her case in total as was spent the first 2 weeks of Abigail and Liberty's case.
The Disappearance of Marina Boelter – The Philosophy of Crime
Maybe ISP did the 'change of direction' on 22 April to fire up the case and bring in more tips. I hate to say it, but the volume of tips that are coming in are what is allowing the ISP to justify the personnel. The ISP probably has been having to justify this because the budgeted funds spent here mean someplace else is getting less attention.

 

[ijuswannaplay2]

I'm confused as to why they can't find the driver of this vehicle that was at that abandoned building. This is a murder investigation. Did this vehicle have no plates to check to see who it belonged to? Was this vehicle reported stolen by the owners, therefore eliminating them from being the drivers? Are the owners of the vehicle not being honest as to who drove it there and left it? I would think they'd know who owned every vehicle within 20 miles of the crime scene, therefore allowing them to narrow down who the possible driver was.

I've read some people have suggested maybe BG ordered the girls down the hill and to cross the creek and then went back across on the bridge. I don't see that happening at all. How would he have maintained any control over them if that happened? What would have kept them from taking off down the road towards Abby's house? Or the other direction towards other houses?

Earlier I brought up the theory that he was leading them towards the cemetery, where he may have been parked, to take them to another location. Now I'm wondering, could he have been parked somewhere on that road under the bridge? How much traffic is on that road usually? Does that road lead to RL's property? Could he have known RL was gone that day and parked there and was hoping to lead the girls there and take them somewhere else? Maybe this is when the girls tried to get away and took off across the creek. I'm beginning to think it wasn't BG's idea to cross this cold creek.

MOO

 

[Falling Down]

After the latest presser, I went to Google Earth and played around with archived images of the MHB, the area around there, and the CPS building.

Lo and behold, you can go back to March of 1992, which wasn't long after CSX abandoned the railroad RoW which runs through there. Long before IN 25 was relocated close to the CPS building, it opened in 2014.

The CPS building first appears in 1993. A parking area in front of the building facing west was obliterated when the highway went through. I think the building was abandoned around 2007-ish.

I stumbled upon something people talked about early on in the case, the "gravel pit" behind the cemetery. It's clearly visible in a USGS image from 1992, which I posted below. The girls were found to the right and a little down from the pit. I also included a screen grab where RL is talking to a reporter, the berm behind the reporter is part of the perimeter berm for the pit. The green box I placed on the USGS image is the approximate spot where the girls were found.

Just thought I'd share, thought it's kinda neat.

I believe the berm for the pit, and other nearby stuff, was used to BG for concealment purposes. I also believe LE about where the perp or perps are from, they're local. No way some random dude found that spot, not in my opinion, not a typical serial killer deal or what have you.

BG knew generally where he wanted to kill the girls, but how he knows RL's and the M property is anyone's guess.

JMO

-FD

 

[Falling Down]

I'm confused as to why they can't find the driver of this vehicle that was at that abandoned building. This is a murder investigation. Did this vehicle have no plates to check to see who it belonged to? Was this vehicle reported stolen by the owners, therefore eliminating them from being the drivers? Are the owners of the vehicle not being honest as to who drove it there and left it? I would think they'd know who owned every vehicle within 20 miles of the crime scene, therefore allowing them to narrow down who the possible driver was.

I'm of the opinion the vehicle has not been identified. LE said it was there between certain hours.

I've read some people have suggested maybe BG ordered the girls down the hill and to cross the creek and then went back across on the bridge. I don't see that happening at all. How would he have maintained any control over them if that happened? What would have kept them from taking off down the road towards Abby's house? Or the other direction towards other houses?

Earlier I brought up the theory that he was leading them towards the cemetery, where he may have been parked, to take them to another location. Now I'm wondering, could he have been parked somewhere on that road under the bridge? How much traffic is on that road usually? Does that road lead to RL's property? Could he have known RL was gone that day and parked there and was hoping to lead the girls there and take them somewhere else? Maybe this is when the girls tried to get away and took off across the creek. I'm beginning to think it wasn't BG's idea to cross this cold creek.

MOO

The road under the bridge leads to a property on the south side of the creek, RL's property is on the north side.

 

[infarmgurl]

Here is an example of an abduction gone wrong (which is a good thing). This occurred on May 5th of this year in Ardmore, Oklahoma. Here is a link to a story that gives a run-down of what happened (watch the video too). Note I think they turn close captioning by default (at least it was for me) so turn it off if you want.

Attempted kidnapping of female runner under investigation in Ardmore

Now, this is a follow-up story with surveillance video included so watch the video story as well.

Ardmore police release new details, video on attempted kidnapping case

There are a few things to dissect about the latter video, in particular, the way the perp went about setting this abduction attempt up whether it succeeded or not but I will wait on that until some people have had a chance to go through both of the stories and videos and will get into those later but anyone can chime in with their observations.

Another example of an abduction gone bad is in New Mexico. Explained in the Albuquerque Journal 3/1/17 attempted abduction at secluded trail --the LaLuz trail. Peep abducted couple, forced them into trunk of car. One person was able to pull safety release and open trunk. He was shot. Girl tried to escape but was re-apprehended. Peep killed girlfriend in Mississippi (I think), killed a church worker and shot a bigger before the abduction. Cross country chase, more shooting and car hijacking, etc before apprehended. Read Albuquerque Journal for complete story. Also look at all posts regarding this perp to see how much he can change his appearance from one time to another.

 

[infarmgurl]

Correction: shot a jogger

 

[Jethro4WS]

If the searcher was added by LG he would see the pic if she posted it to her story or sent it to him.

It was posted on FB by one of Libby's friends who had uploaded the image to FB. That is where the Daily Mail - I believe the first MSM to publish it - got it since they credit Facebook for the image.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I don't know if this was ever discussed before. If you zoom in on the BG photos, to his feet, on one of the frames it looks like there could be a faint stripe on his right footwear. This news article talking about the bomb threat and the Twitter showing evidence to be analysed are from the same day. Anyone think it's possible that bomb threat at the Indiana Packers plant and police walking with "evidence" that looks like the boots (with white banding at ankle area) they wear in that work place could really have been part of the Delphi investigation? There had been another bomb threat there previously but someone was arrested and charged for it. No one was charged though, that I can find, for the threat on that day shortly after the murders. Just something I cane across and thought was interesting.

UPDATED: Police: Bomb threat called in to Indiana Packers in Delphi

Twitter

ISP: Delphi Homicide Investigation

What, if a bomb threat to Ind. Packers was called in by the BG? To disturb LE/FBI in the most important time of their investigation (first 48 hours) of the missing and murdered girls?
The rubber boots (black with white band as you see it) aren't looking like the shoes, BG was wearing, I think. Under the lower half of his jeans one can't recognize a boot shaft and the part, which is seen, doesn't look voluminous like the lower part of rubber boots (feet). IMO The white stripe, I saw on BG's shoes, doesn't sit around a boot shaft, but on the shoes (front part). If you would look down on your shoes like BG would, you see a white stripe in form of the letter "M", softly curved and spilling out to the sides of shoes. IMO Can't explain better in English, sorry.

 

[Jethro4WS]

Another example of an abduction gone bad is in New Mexico. Explained in the Albuquerque Journal 3/1/17 attempted abduction at secluded trail --the LaLuz trail. Peep abducted couple, forced them into trunk of car. One person was able to pull safety release and open trunk. He was shot. Girl tried to escape but was re-apprehended. Peep killed girlfriend in Mississippi (I think), killed a church worker and shot a bigger before the abduction. Cross country chase, more shooting and car hijacking, etc before apprehended. Read Albuquerque Journal for complete story. Also look at all posts regarding this perp to see how much he can change his appearance from one time to another.

The point of my post was to illustrate exactly what the perp in Ardmore had done.

1. Vehicles in Oklahoma only have rear plates. If you watched the second video that shows the surveillance you can see that he backed the car into the spot, closest available one to the exit of the parking lot.
2. Backing his car in also made his exit faster than his entrance as backing up (unless you do it completely blind) is slower.
3. He chose an intercept point straight across the road that was within a short distance to his car such that, success or fail, he has the best possible chance of getting to his means of escape.

This are important things to see because it demonstrates that people who do such things actually do some planning/preparation to mitigate risks and have a plan to get out quickly success or fail.

So, what, if anything can we determine about BG's thinking and preparation?

What was his mitigation plan to keep one or both girls from running?

Either one gets away then whatever he was going to do is out the window. We know the girls were not physically trapped where they were at the time of the video. We know when the video of BG was taken BG was some 70 feet away. If the girls had thought to run they would have had a large head start especially since the ties on a railroad bridge are not spaced for human walking (let alone running) but for supporting very heavy trains.

What happens should someone come down the trail to get on the bridge at the north side? What does BG do? What if the abduction is already in progress? What was the mitigation plan for those scenarios?

He certainly wouldn't be able to go back over the bridge. Anyone on the bridge or just at the north end has the high ground and would be able to watch where BG would go.

What if a car, or a delivery vehicle, whatever, came along the road that goes under the bridge? What does he do?
What if there was someone or even a few people further south of the bridge that BG didn't or couldn't see?

What happens if when BG and the girls get to the south bank of the creek and there is one or more persons that can be seen over on the other side? What happens then?

He certainly wouldn't be able to see the area where the girls were found from where they were at the end of the bridge. Wouldn't be able to see into that area until almost at the banks of the creek. This would seemingly be the worst possible spot for things to go wrong. He would have to back track all the way.

Success or fail: How close was his means of escape? What were his options for getting to his means of escape?

If we go with the prevailing theory of the flow of the crime it would appear that BG came armed with the plan of going through the 35-38 degree water of the creek if it was a success. I could see crossing the creek as an escape plan B if things went wrong but doing so if things went right? Who thinks like that?

Obviously BG, if things happened as theorized and something like that should inform any profile of BG.

If the vehicle of interest at the CPS was BG's just how fast could he get there if things went bad? 10 minutes? 15 minutes? Both of those are a long time for law enforcement to arrive. Someone could follow BG at a distance just to keep him in sight and relay that information. If someone were on the other side of the bridge it would possibly preclude that option for getting out of there. Would such a scenario force BG to go the long way around staying on the South Side? But at the same time someone who had seen/interrupted this crime could easily follow along the north side keeping BG in sight.

While it is true that there wasn't an interruption, the girls didn't run, someone didn't come along to spook BG and scare him off but that does not mean that BG could count on, let alone know in advance, that everything would fall into place.

I have trouble especially with the idea that BG would chose an intercept point that wouldn't be in sight of, or a very short and easy path to, his means of escape if something went wrong.

If his means of escape were on the South Side then that has the some problems as well if the prevailing theory of the crime flow is true especially if things went wrong after crossing the creek, though he would be closer to a means of escape.

These are the kinds of things I try to work through.

 

[tresir2012]

I think Carter wanted to emphasize that BG has ties to Delphi, not that he is necessarily from Delphi or a current or longtime resident. Carter said something to the effect that the murder might live in Delphi, or have previously lived in Delphi, or work in Delphi, or visit often. With whatever LE knows about the crime scene flow, and their opinion that BG 'got around quickly' (whatever that means), they believe that only a person who is very familiar with the trails and surrounding area would be able to commit this crime. LE also believes that he is 'hiding in plain sight' which means he is blending in to the community.

How do they actually know this though? What has brought LE to this conclusion?

Eg. Someone could be from Lafayette and know the trails like the back of his hand if he frequented them often.

 

[tresir2012]

Poll results of what posters think they can see on BG's head.

23 think it's a hat
3 think it's hair
6 think it's a hoodie

 

[Trino]

Jumping in here...
I just don’t think BG’s family/friends have put two and two together. BG may be a guy who lives at home, goes to work daily, keeps to himself, does nothing wrong to make himself a suspect. IMO he’s not Delphi local but neighboring local. Seems a too complicated scenario for someone who just happened upon the bridge and surrounding area.