CANADA Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #19

[dotr]

rbbm Jun. 22, 2022

The Star saw the Sherman crime-scene and autopsy photos. How could a pathologist and police call it a murder-suicide?

Photos, notes raise new questions about how investigators made their mistaken determination in the Barry and Honey Sherman case.

www.thestar.com

''The Sherman bodies are located in a corner of the swimming pool room (the far right corner of the house if you are looking from the street).

The location of the bodies is the most remote part of the Sherman house, and the pool was rarely used — the water was green, the pool cover was on, and the room had not been cleaned for three weeks. My speculation is that this area was chosen so that it would be a considerable amount of time before they were discovered.''

''In the photos I have seen there are what appear to be faint drag marks on the tiled floors, possibly from the heels of one of the Shermans’ shoes, which end at the bodies. From the police documents, we know that the Sherman cleaning staff had not visited the room for three weeks, so the faint marks were likely made in dust on the floor.

The bodies have been placed in such a manner that someone walking in would see Honey first, then Barry, on the other side of Honey.''

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

They could have been killed right next to the railing. KD says there were some scuff marks on the floor, but I doubt they were killed upstairs and then relocated to the pool. IMO they were killed very close to where they were found. Why would a killer do otherwise?

OK, so they were killed near the pool where no one had gone for a number of weeks? The killer lured them there or forced them there and killed them. This is getting a bit too convoluted.

 

[ldlager]

OK, so they were killed near the pool where no one had gone for a number of weeks? The killer lured them there or forced them there and killed them. This is getting a bit too convoluted.

Yes I believe that is what happened. I think they were restrained and then forced into the pool room or the pool area by the killer(s). I suspect that they were likely killed in the pool area And then positioned. It has been reported that Barry's gloves and his house inspection report were found in the basement hallway outside the pool room, inside the door leading into the house from the garage. Of course we only know what has been reported, but There is no evidence or reporting that I am aware of that indicates Barry was anywhere else in the house that evening except in the basement. I don’t understand why someone would kill them on another floor and risk being seen through a window and then have to drag or carry them to the pool area when they could just force them when alive into the pool area In the first place. Just MOO

 

[Errrr]

The problem with that is they would have needed a doctor's prescription in order to get their hands on the drugs.

WHAT? The only way for a professional killer to get their hands on drugs is with a doctors prescription?

 

[Errrr]

True, a couple of good stagehands with a few rehearsals could pull it off, ironically the video was preceded by a CTire commercial! imo.

But why bother when nobody is clear on the message they are trying to convey? They should have used a pencil.

 

[Errrr]

Yes I believe that is what happened. I think they were restrained and then forced into the pool room or the pool area by the killer(s). I suspect that they were likely killed in the pool area And then positioned. It has been reported that Barry's gloves and his house inspection report were found in the basement hallway outside the pool room, inside the door leading into the house from the garage. Of course we only know what has been reported, but There is no evidence or reporting that I am aware of that indicates Barry was anywhere else in the house that evening except in the basement. I don’t understand why someone would kill them on another floor and risk being seen through a window and then have to drag or carry them to the pool area when they could just force them when alive into the pool area In the first place. Just MOO

didnt they die at different times?

 

[Lexiintoronto]

didnt they die at different times?

We don’t know that yet. HS arrived home around 8:00 and Barry arrived home at around 8:50-9:00. LE said they were both killed between 9:00-12:00.

KD has speculated that HS was possibly attacked and/or killed as soon as she arrived home.

 

[dotr]

Whatever the 'message'' might have been and for whom, the display at the pool certainly seemed like one intended to startle, confuse and be talked about long after the 'show ' is over, imo.speculation.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/barry-honey-sherman-murder-2021-1.5860527#:~:text=Barry%20Sherman%2C%2075%2C%20the%20founder,on%20Dec.%2015%2C%202017.

John Lancaster · June 12, 2021 rbbm
''The ITOs describe how the four moved through the house from the second floor down to the basement toward the indoor pool area.

Stern said she opened the door there and turned on the lights. That's when she, Zhao and his clients saw Honey and Barry Sherman's bodies, police recount.

"Stern says it was very weird. They were far away and their heads were elevated and hanging on the railing leading into the pool," police said.

She would later tell police she thought the couple was doing "some weird yoga thing" before realizing they were actually dead, according to the ITOs.

Zhao previously told CBC News he and his clients thought they had stumbled across some kind of bizarre, leftover Halloween display or a sick joke. "Fake murders" is how he described the scene to CBC News in October 2018.

Zhao said his clients, who were from mainland China, considered it a bad omen to see the bodies and left the home before police arrived.

The ITOs indicate the Shermans' housekeeper, their personal trainer and a furnace technician had also entered the house that morning, but none of them saw the couple's bodies in the pool area.

The housekeeper and trainer were first to arrive, around 8:25 a.m., and told police the couple's house alarm was off. They thought that was odd — it was the first time they had seen the alarm deactivated in the three years they had been working there.

Home builders last to see couple alive​

The documents appear to bolster a working police theory that the Shermans were likely killed 36 hours before being discovered.

They suggest the last people to see the Shermans alive were a custom home builder, architect and subcontractor who met with the couple around 5 p.m. ET on Wednesday, Dec. 13, 2017, to go over some details of the new $20 million home they planned to build.''

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

As usual, dotr you are a star. ^^^^^

 

[WINDSOR]

Very true but I don't understand the "garbled message" thing. The word "garbled" indicates spoken word. Do LE have a tape of him/them speaking? He/they must have been hours killing, dragging, staging before leaving the house. Tell us about "garbled'. Thanks in advance.

I think the 'garbled message' refers to the staging of the bodies. ie, 'the bodies were staged to send a message, yet nobody seems to know what the message was.'

 

[dotr]

Would a 'message' left by a killer by staging a bizarre murder scene, differ greatly from other killers with a similar 'message' to convey, be dependent on each of his (or her) cultural influences?

In other words, if the message was essentially in a ''foreign language'' visually, would its meaning be correctly interpreted and understood by most?
speculation, imo. rbbm

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/51369228_Crime_Scene_Staging_and_Its_Detection

''... Being the act or the attempt to obliterate the fact that a murder has been committed, murder concealment can range from non-concealment and non-disfiguring to complete concealment and total disfigurement. Although many researchers agree that precautionary acts by offenders are commonly discovered during crime investigations [8,9,11] psychological traits relating to the behaviors/actions of murder concealment remain unreported. Considering variations in population characteristics from one country to another, it is possible that the modus operandi may also vary, an assumption that requires clarification. ...''

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

The act of leaving a victim's body in an unusual position is a conscious criminal action by an offender to thwart an investigation, shock the finder and investigators of the crime scene, or give perverted pleasure to the killer.

From wiki on why killers stage/pose victims.

 

[FromGermany1]

Would a 'message' left by a killer by staging a bizarre murder scene, differ greatly from other killers with a similar 'message' to convey, be dependent on each of his (or her) cultural influences?

In other words, if the message was essentially in a ''foreign language'' visually, would its meaning be correctly interpreted and understood by most?
speculation, imo. rbbm

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/51369228_Crime_Scene_Staging_and_Its_Detection

''... Being the act or the attempt to obliterate the fact that a murder has been committed, murder concealment can range from non-concealment and non-disfiguring to complete concealment and total disfigurement. Although many researchers agree that precautionary acts by offenders are commonly discovered during crime investigations [8,9,11] psychological traits relating to the behaviors/actions of murder concealment remain unreported. Considering variations in population characteristics from one country to another, it is possible that the modus operandi may also vary, an assumption that requires clarification. ...''

If the staging indeed was a replica of the 2 garbage mannequins or sculptures, then I think, there was no hidden FOREIGN meaning to it, but of course a meaning.
The sculptures were first presented in a store window of a department store, afaik. What was the motto of the window? Something like environmental protection perhaps?? Chemistry/much money (Apotex) and environmental protection - is there some connection (hate)? What did the killer want to prevent by killing not one, but both of them? What did he want to punish for?

 

[rkendmar]

If the staging indeed was a replica of the 2 garbage mannequins or sculptures, then I think, there was no hidden FOREIGN meaning to it, but of course a meaning.
The sculptures were first presented in a store window of a department store, afaik. What was the motto of the window? Something like environmental protection perhaps?? Chemistry/much money (Apotex) and environmental protection - is there some connection (hate)? What did the killer want to prevent by killing not one, but both of them? What did he want to punish for?

"What did he want to punish for?"
BS & HS were keeping the klller(s) from getting what they wanted.
JMO

 

[FromGermany1]

"What did he want to punish for?"
BS & HS were keeping the klller(s) from getting what they wanted.
JMO

Might be, of course.

 

[dotr]

If the staging indeed was a replica of the 2 garbage mannequins or sculptures, then I think, there was no hidden FOREIGN meaning to it, but of course a meaning.
The sculptures were first presented in a store window of a department store, afaik. What was the motto of the window? Something like environmental protection perhaps?? Chemistry/much money (Apotex) and environmental protection - is there some connection (hate)? What did the killer want to prevent by killing not one, but both of them? What did he want to punish for?

i was thinking more about the simple picture, the very first impression at the sight of the couple, in the distance, sitting side by side, tethered to the side of a pool, a symbolic womb, moo, speculation.

 

[FromGermany1]

i was thinking more about the simple picture, the very first impression at the sight of the couple, in the distance, sitting side by side, tethered to the side of a pool, a symbolic womb, moo, speculation.

The "symbolic womb" I don't understand. Please, help!

 

[dotr]

The "symbolic womb" I don't understand. Please, help!

Example..

Mikvah (Baptism): The Connection Between Immersion, Conversion and Being Born Again | Messianic Bible

The Biblical significance of the mikvah didn't start with John the Baptist. It was a regular ritual back in the days of Moses. Find out why.

free.messianicbible.com

''Judaism regards the mikvah as a symbolic expression of rebirth.

The mikvah represents the mother’s womb, which is called in Hebrew rechem. This comes from the same root as the Hebrew word for mercy (rahamah).

Immersing fully into the waters of the mikvah is like re-entering the womb, the place of mercy; of God’s creative power. Emerging from the mikvah is like being born again.

Immersion in a mikvah also represents death and resurrection. A person under water enters a death-like state, like a person descending into a grave. When he comes back out of the water, he comes back to life as a new creation.''

 

[newclues]

We don’t know that yet. HS arrived home around 8:00 and Barry arrived home at around 8:50-9:00. LE said they were both killed between 9:00-12:00.

KD has speculated that HS was possibly attacked and/or killed as soon as she arrived home.

Due to the dropped cell phone found in the powder room, it is believed that HS may have been ambushed and killed on the main floor while BS is believed to have been ambushed and killed in the basement due to papers and gloves found on the floor there near the basement door from the garage. The killer must have ambushed, overpowered, and zip-tied their hands and then their necks to kill them.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Do we even know how/where the killer entered the house? And who turned off the alarm system? Was the killer already inside the house when they both got home?