Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #132

Discussion in 'Located Persons Discussion' started by Tricia, Apr 22, 2019.

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  1. Yellow Rose

    Yellow Rose Well-Known Member

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  2. obamas tie

    obamas tie New Member

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    Yeah that's a good point. They probably had at least some social media accounts. It seems unlikely a random guy would just be randomly walk into the girls on that one particular day.
     
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  3. photographer4

    photographer4 Well-Known Member

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    I considered drowning too but not on the creek bed actually. No way BG dragged 200lbs of Libby (I cited her weight from an official source way up thread last time we discussed if they'd been dragged anywhere). Its rough terrain. 50ft from the creek is how far LE said they'd been found. So for that reason, I ruled out drowning in the creek.

    That does not however, rule out drowning in other water that may have been near where they were found.
     
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  4. photographer4

    photographer4 Well-Known Member

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    Interesting point about knots - if he tied a knot, its possible investigators untied it and took DNA from it.
    THinking more on this: I don't think either girl was found by LE in the water as it's been said by Kim Riley that he stood on a ridge about 300ft away and he could see them just lying there. The bodies were found about 50ft from the creek according to LE which to me, rules them out from being found in the creek. Near it yet, but not in it.
     
  5. photographer4

    photographer4 Well-Known Member

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    Can you please elaborate on this idea? Where were they taken and how does that make it more likely they were choked?
     
  6. photographer4

    photographer4 Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. They were looking for any other possible evidence at all (they may not even have known what they were looking for, and just picking up items of possible interest).

    Things they may have been looking for might include:
    -> tobacco products in water / along shore
    > clothing / footwear
    > weapon(s)
    > evidence of other crimes (eg: drugs, prostitution)
    > electronic device(s) (cell phone, watch(es), key(s)
    > string / rope

    Anything else they could have been searching the water for?
     
  7. minazoe

    minazoe Well-Known Member

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    yes what facility? what do you mean?
     
  8. Peppery

    Peppery Well-Known Member

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    My guess is they were looking for anything they could find but specifically Libby's cell phone that the Patty's would've known was missing and the murder weapon which I believe was a knife or bladed instrument.
     
  9. Peppery

    Peppery Well-Known Member

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    I know they were autopsied in Terre Haute, IN but I assumed it was the closest or fasted location.
     
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  10. TL4S

    TL4S Well-Known Member

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    I don't know about a clean up crew, but if we are to assume the murders occurred in the tapped-off area which RL described as "pristine," I see nothing to warrant some of the theories that pop up occasionally. I see no apparent drag marks, no disturbed soil, no cleared areas, no obvious broken tree limbs, etc. I see one damaged tree (near center of photo below), but it looks damaged most the way up and appears to be right at the edge of the tape. Jmo

    upload_2021-4-9_9-7-57.png
     
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  11. FrostedGlass

    FrostedGlass Well-Known Member

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    The bodies were sent to Terre Haute IN for the autopsies. There is a pathologist there, Dr. Roland Kohr, who has expertise in asphyxia, along with blood/fluid testing and tissue biopsy. It could be just a matter of convenience, as another poster suggested but his expertise caught my attention.
     
  12. StarryStarryNight

    StarryStarryNight Well-Known Member

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    There has been a lot of talk here about possible online chats and social media concerning the girls. LE though has repeatedly said that LE has looked into that and all the electronic devises of the girls and everyone in their families and have found nothing linked to the crime.
     
  13. photographer4

    photographer4 Well-Known Member

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    Asphyxia would make sense to me given that LE have commented that searchers may not have known what they'd come upon initially. If this was a bloody /gory scene, anyone in the search party would have had no question what they'd come upon. They'd have known immediately this was a murder. But not knowing what they'd come upon suggests to me that the girls were possibly not showing obvious signs of trauma.

    Quoting myself from:

    Found Deceased - IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #130

    (Q. In the public domain there have been descriptions of the crime scene, descriptions of items found and the positioning of the bodies. Do you feel there was an excessive number of persons present once it was determined to be a crime scene?

    A. Once secured by law enforcement as a crime scene, no. I would surmise that searchers did not immediately know what they had come upon.)
    Source: Carroll County Comet.
     
  14. photographer4

    photographer4 Well-Known Member

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    If searchers didn't know what they'd come upon immediately, then asphyxia seems the most likely explanation as to why not. So then I'd have to ask with what?

    If something cut off oxygen from outside the body, if their necks were visible to searchers, would the COD have been obvious to searchers who found them? Eg: would they have had marks on their necks from the force applied?

    OR:
    Could it have been that searchers didn't know what they'd come upon because perhaps something suffocated them from the inside? EG: a sock stuffed down their throat? Would searchers have noticed that?

    How did searchers not know what they'd come upon? They found the girls, was it obvious they were deceased at all or did they look as though they were sleeping?

    I can't imagine a bloody gory death that isn't noticed by searchers right away - unless the injuries and blood were concealed.
     
  15. FrostedGlass

    FrostedGlass Well-Known Member

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    I'm open to the possibility that there were 2 taped-off areas on Rl's property. One that didn't have much evidence so they allowed reporters access to that one. Another located further east which they did not allow access to.
     
  16. carbuff

    carbuff Well-Known Member

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    It seems to me that the scene being that pristine is by itself a bit unusual. At very least you'd expect marks where evidence was removed, that kind of thing. At the scene where L&L's bodies were recovered, they cut down most of the shrubs (?and sent them to the lab for analysis?) and raked up the layer of leaves that had fallen after the bodies were left there.
     
  17. MistyWaters

    MistyWaters Well-Known Member

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    We can’t just assume the searchers approached within a few feet of the bodies. As soon as they noticed there was no movement, often as searchers are required to do, they may’ve stood back and immediately contacted the search coordinator to notify them of their discovery so that emergency responders could be quickly contacted.

    The role of a searcher involved in an official search is to locate, that’s it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2021
  18. MistyWaters

    MistyWaters Well-Known Member

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    Some of the photos that I’ve noticed show one corner of crime scene tape but never the other. In this video there’s glimpses of crime scene tape running into the far distance - the area taped off is most definitely far larger than just a small square. Maybe it ran a narrow path along the entire mile of RLs property along the creek bank. No way would RL have the ability to identify the exact location and I don’t think that was ever his intention. I think he was just pointing out crime scene tape located on his property and people automatically jumped to the conclusion the bodies were found wherever the reporters pointed their camera.

    Delphi, Indiana Murders: Reward in 2017 killings of 2 teens grows to $325K
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2021
  19. Charlot123

    Charlot123 Well-Known Member

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    I think the problem might be, there is an abyss in mentality lying between today’s teenagers, who grew up with computer games, internet sites and the whole online world, and people of DC/TL generation, who probably did not. Unless you can physically see every post your kid makes, you can not understand how he/she lives. Logically thinking, there must have been a certain connection between the girls and the murderer, at least he must have known about them, but it is possible that the connection is only online. I still think he has the victims stacked up in the areas he visits, and he has a good alibi to visit these areas, but it is JMO.
     
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  20. TL4S

    TL4S Well-Known Member

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    The area south of the cemetery does feel like more than just a blocked access point to the real crime scene, imo, because it appears to be taped-off on three sides. It's obvious I'm open to considering there's an unknown CS farther east, but I do think the taped-off area is either it, or maybe where they crossed the creek (or both). I'm having a hard time, however, reconciling LE leaving the spot where two children died, on private property, taped-off for weeks after the the fact, but maybe that's normal procedure.

    I also thought it was standard procedure to preserve the possible entrance and exit paths, as well, but it seems the cemetery wasn't considered that at the time of the investigation. That's odd to me, if the taped-off area is indeed the final CS, because of its proximity, but I'm not LE. Here's what TL said in the Comet Q&A:


    Q. Are there regrets about not securing the Morning Heights Cemetery as a possible part of the crime scene (i.e. possible exit route of the killer(s)?

    A. At the time, it was uncertain exactly what the “totality of the circumstances” were.
    ------

    Q. There are many residents of the county that have never been on the trails, describe the terrain of where the girls were found? What is the most direct route out of the area they were found? How long of a walk from where they entered to where they were found?

    A. Very similar to one of the state’s parks. A lot of hills, brush, trees, etc. Directly south of the Morning Heights Cemetery but on private property. I do not recall the specific distance.


     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2021
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