Steven Avery: Guilty of Teresa Halbach's Murder?

Is Steven Avery responsible for the murder of Teresa Halbach?

  • He did it

    Votes: 253 29.7%
  • Some other guy did it

    Votes: 67 7.9%
  • Looks guilty at this point

    Votes: 74 8.7%
  • Not guilty based on evidence I've seen thus far

    Votes: 195 22.9%
  • Undecided, but believe new trial is in order

    Votes: 254 29.8%
  • Undecided all around; more information required

    Votes: 55 6.5%

  • Total voters
    852
Status
Not open for further replies.
Well, you and I have disagreed on this for some time and it is great that we can debate our thoughts. One thing I do not fully understand from your position, is do you think that Avery is totally innocent and everything was planted, or do you feel he did something and certain aspects were tampered with?

And.... at the risk of going down a Rabbit Hole.... :drumroll:

If not Avery, then who killed Teresa and how did they manage to frame Avery for it? :)
Oh boy...just dropped my girl off to school and just " happened " to check my phone..hahaha!
I'm still in my car and the neighbors cat is stalking me...lol! If only I could share a picture of this😉
Responding to my WS friends, in my vehicle...while this big fluffy kitty cat is walking all up & down my windshield meowing " feed me that amazing tuna you sometimes do, please! "
My life❤
I do NOT believe Avery had a thing to do with Teresa going missing or being murdered.
My hands don't work well & texting long responses are difficult.
I'll explain my answer better on my laptop.
Need to get outta this car!😉

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk
 
Well, you and I have disagreed on this for some time and it is great that we can debate our thoughts. One thing I do not fully understand from your position, is do you think that Avery is totally innocent and everything was planted, or do you feel he did something and certain aspects were tampered with?

And.... at the risk of going down a Rabbit Hole.... :drumroll:

If not Avery, then who killed Teresa and how did they manage to frame Avery for it? :)
Yes, it is great to be able to debate and not be nasty to each other❤
Thank you, I really do appreciate it😊

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk
 
Oh boy...just dropped my girl off to school and just " happened " to check my phone..hahaha!
I'm still in my car and the neighbors cat is stalking me...lol! If only I could share a picture of this��
Responding to my WS friends, in my vehicle...while this big fluffy kitty cat is walking all up & down my windshield meowing " feed me that amazing tuna you sometimes do, please! "
My life❤
I do NOT believe Avery had a thing to do with Teresa going missing or being murdered.
My hands don't work well & texting long responses are difficult.
I'll explain my answer better on my laptop.
Need to get outta this car!��

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

LOL, that cat sure sounds as if he's trying to get your attention, :)
I agree with what you say about Avery, and i think it would of been easy enough to set him up from all i have read,
 
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There was so much reasonable doubt raised and obviously police tampering that Avery should have been found Not Guilty. The standard for conviction was clearly not reached and the police forces behaviour was and still is deplorable.
 
There was so much reasonable doubt raised and obviously police tampering that Avery should have been found Not Guilty. The standard for conviction was clearly not reached and the police forces behaviour was and still is deplorable.
Agree! Welcome to WS:welcome:
 
I think if there are too many options and it gets all muddled :)


I think there are absolutes that can be pinpointed in the poll.

for example :

What do you believe right now ?

Guilty
Innocent
Undecided - need more information


Another might be :

Do you believe police planted evidence :

Yes
No
Undecided - willing to consider this could have happened.



Personally, I think that's cleaner. If there was only one user per vote, that they could change at any time, you could even track how overall impressions changed over time and cross reference with new details that emerge.


I voted "looks guilty", but I also think that he needs a new trial, because I have tons of questions and suspicion.


"looks guilty" is an impression, but not as definitive.
I agree. The polling options could be more clear. Guility, Not Guilty and undecided should be the three options.
 
Well, you and I have disagreed on this for some time and it is great that we can debate our thoughts. One thing I do not fully understand from your position, is do you think that Avery is totally innocent and everything was planted, or do you feel he did something and certain aspects were tampered with?

And.... at the risk of going down a Rabbit Hole.... :drumroll:

If not Avery, then who killed Teresa and how did they manage to frame Avery for it? :)
Your last sentence is interesting. You might be referring to two different parties. The person or persons who killed TH and the person who persons that covered it up. I believe a coalition including the police and possibly TH's brother assisted in the framing and the killing could have been several different parties. Brendan's brother, dad or step dad, Avery's brother, someone who was stalking TH, there are many options.

Don't be fooled into thinking police never frame a suspect or plant evidence to strengthen their case. This sort of behaviour happens all the time.

Even if Steve did kill her, and I don't think he did, there are too many blurred lines to ever know the truth. Reasonable doubt was blantanly obvious and he should have been convicted. It's a sad social commentary that people are getting convicted because they seem to meet the profile of a killer. PROOF is what is needed.

I would also say that police tampering of this magnitude should be an instant Not Guilty on principle alone.
 
Your last sentence is interesting. You might be referring to two different parties. The person or persons who killed TH and the person who persons that covered it up. I believe a coalition including the police and possibly TH's brother assisted in the framing and the killing could have been several different parties. Brendan's brother, dad or step dad, Avery's brother, someone who was stalking TH, there are many options.

Don't be fooled into thinking police never frame a suspect or plant evidence to strengthen their case. This sort of behaviour happens all the time.

Even if Steve did kill her, and I don't think he did, there are too many blurred lines to ever know the truth. Reasonable doubt was blantanly obvious and he should have been convicted. It's a sad social commentary that people are getting convicted because they seem to meet the profile of a killer. PROOF is what is needed.

I would also say that police tampering of this magnitude should be an instant Not Guilty on principle alone.

Welcome to the debate. The good thing about this site is on the whole, most people share their ideas, however extreme in all directions, and posters are cordial.

To that end, I am going to share with you an edited post that I shared with another user, whilst discussing some of the coincidences & amnesia surrounding this case. Spoiler alert, I agree with the jury of Avery's Peers that he is guilty and where he should be right now. The following, has shaped my thinking from day one.

I know, let’s clean up a small section of the Garage together….. and then both coincidentally forget about it.

There is nothing damning about this at all. Just two people, cleaning up a stain that one of them has no idea what it is, nor why it is so important that it must be cleaned up on a Monday evening, instead of playing video games or Trick or Treating…... Not to worry, Amnesia & Coincidence are going to explain this away, and a lot more besides.

On its own? Cleaning a stain in the garage is nothing. However, add a few coincidences & 'memory lapses' and it should give any inquisitive mind, (or a trained LE Officer) cause for concern. More to the point, it is bound to invite more questions. Avery's garage was like the junk yard and a real mess. Debris lay all around and its lack of cleanliness was in keeping with its surroundings. Was there really a sense of urgency to clean a small stain in it that night?

Avery & Dassey decide to clean a 3 ft by 3ft stain on the floor of this garage, on the same day that TH is last seen alive. They also decide to have a bonfire at the same time. Coincidence? Possibly, but not as much as a coincidence as them both 'forgetting' to tell LE during the initial interviews on the 5th & 6th of November. One of them forgetting? Maybe. Both of them????

Amnesia & Coincidence - It does not end there.

You would think, that if you had a fire and forgot about it, if a policeman starts asking you when was the last time you actually had a fire, it might make you think a little more and cure that amnesia. Given the last fire you had was with your nephew, and you both drove around your property in a Golf Buggy collecting material for it, including a car seat, branches, tyres & a cabinet, that it might jog your memory. Here, I am going to use the word kindly and say it was just a coincidence that Avery forgot about this. As with Dassey.

The night of the fire though, is not just a random night though. By sheer coincidence, the night of the fire is Halloween. Quite a memorable evening by all accounts and one that Dassey might remember as he recalled his Brother going Trick or Treating. Coincidentally, Dassey's Mother was away for most of the early evening, visiting her Boyfriends Mother in hospital. However both she and her Boyfriend, did recall the bonfire, which is another (albeit unfortunate) coincidence.

Now, given that just a couple of days ago, Avery gave an interview to the media about the girl that came to see him and has not been seen since, this might make that Halloween Night become a little clearer. Nope. He cannot instantly remember her name in his first interview, but we can put that down to Avery Amnesia. That others did recall detail about her on that day, is just a coincidence, but more of that later.

Now another memory lapse. Avery was asked what he was wearing that night, during those first interviews on the 5th & 6th of November. He says he could not remember. Fair enough. He has only been asked about that night a couple of times in TV interviews & a call from LE in the last couple of days. He forgot. Sure. No problem. By sheer coincidence, he has some clothes in the boot/ trunk of his car. However, his memory actually stands him in good stead here, because when asked if he was wearing any of those on Halloween less than a week ago, he is adamant that they were not the ones.

Now, this is where memory lapse works in a mysterious way. He can't remember what he was wearing, but he can remember what he wasn't, if you catch my drift. This by the way, is the night he had a bonfire with his nephew, who remembered changing out of the clothes he wore to school, put some clean jeans on out of his drawer, but then changed out of them again later in the evening, despite saying they were not covered in any of the substance he was helping to clean. (He did get bleach on them, but as many will know, bleach only shows itself after a wash.)

Back to the coincidences (which might make a policeman a little suspicious.) The same night, that two people coincidentally have a bonfire but don't tell LE, two separate people (Radant & Fabian) see the fire. One of whom, tells LE before the car was found. Speaking of coincidences, the car that was found, belonged to the girl Avery told police in early November, had been to his property several times. Memory lapse alert: During those interviews he could only vaguely describe her. (When asked what she looked like, he said ‘... Skinny.... Like my Sister' and her hair was ‘Darker…... shorter.’ ) Coincidentally, he had been asked about her by a TV crew days earlier, and her picture was plastered all over the TV for the previous 48 hours since she had been reported missing. (Ask Barb, she called home & told Dassey to put the TV on.) I don't know wether that is both a coincidence she was on the TV and /or bad memory that he couldn't remember the detail.

Coincidentally, the two other appointments Teresa had that day, could recall she wore a white shirt, blues jeans and a waist length dark jacket. SS & JE Z, both gave statements describing what Teresa wore that day. Avery is the only only out of the three that cannot remember. But that is just a coincidence.

We know Avery was cured of his Amnesia when speaking to Barb from Prison, as he recalled the fire on Halloween, and the attendance of Dassey at it. Coincidentally, Prison life must cure Amnesia, because Dassey also recalled the fire in a conversation with Barb too. Coincidence? Or she has such a soothing manner that people just tell her their inner most secrets.

Back to the fire. Coincidentally, there was a burn barrel next to the site of the bonfire. This also was in use on Halloween, and by some coincidence, some personal possessions of the missing Woman, were found in that barrel. You have guessed it, Avery forgets about using this and says that stuff was planted in that and the pit.

The last thing Avery forgets for now? His mad chained up Dog that would not let investigators near the fire pit for two days until it could be subdued. Avery coincidentally forgot that the person he claims planted evidence, would have had the same issue with his dog.

Cleaning the garage floor? No problem. Cleaning it the same night as a girl goes missing and is murdered, whilst 'forgetting’ a major bonfire & other events that evening?? Clearly, just a coincidence and a sure case of Amnesia……..
 
Although I am not entirely sure that he did it, I believe that there is a lot in favor of him being guilty. The way they treated his nephew was absolutely appalling and I am so glad that, at least, if nothing else, this documentary helped him out.

I have a very hard time believing that SA was just that unlucky that many times. It just doesn't sit well.
 
Also, I don't think enough attention has been paid to SA horrific act of animal abuse. I understand that abusing an animal does not necessarily make a murderer, but I also don't think it is something to just brush aside and ignore. There is a lot of evidence out there linking animal abuse to later acts of violence. Kind of a "gateway" crime. That is incredibly oversimplified but does anyone else think that there is something there to look at?
 
Welcome to the debate. The good thing about this site is on the whole, most people share their ideas, however extreme in all directions, and posters are cordial.

To that end, I am going to share with you an edited post that I shared with another user, whilst discussing some of the coincidences & amnesia surrounding this case. Spoiler alert, I agree with the jury of Avery's Peers that he is guilty and where he should be right now. The following, has shaped my thinking from day one.

I know, let’s clean up a small section of the Garage together….. and then both coincidentally forget about it.

There is nothing damning about this at all. Just two people, cleaning up a stain that one of them has no idea what it is, nor why it is so important that it must be cleaned up on a Monday evening, instead of playing video games or Trick or Treating…... Not to worry, Amnesia & Coincidence are going to explain this away, and a lot more besides.

On its own? Cleaning a stain in the garage is nothing. However, add a few coincidences & 'memory lapses' and it should give any inquisitive mind, (or a trained LE Officer) cause for concern. More to the point, it is bound to invite more questions. Avery's garage was like the junk yard and a real mess. Debris lay all around and its lack of cleanliness was in keeping with its surroundings. Was there really a sense of urgency to clean a small stain in it that night?

Avery & Dassey decide to clean a 3 ft by 3ft stain on the floor of this garage, on the same day that TH is last seen alive. They also decide to have a bonfire at the same time. Coincidence? Possibly, but not as much as a coincidence as them both 'forgetting' to tell LE during the initial interviews on the 5th & 6th of November. One of them forgetting? Maybe. Both of them????

Amnesia & Coincidence - It does not end there.

You would think, that if you had a fire and forgot about it, if a policeman starts asking you when was the last time you actually had a fire, it might make you think a little more and cure that amnesia. Given the last fire you had was with your nephew, and you both drove around your property in a Golf Buggy collecting material for it, including a car seat, branches, tyres & a cabinet, that it might jog your memory. Here, I am going to use the word kindly and say it was just a coincidence that Avery forgot about this. As with Dassey.

The night of the fire though, is not just a random night though. By sheer coincidence, the night of the fire is Halloween. Quite a memorable evening by all accounts and one that Dassey might remember as he recalled his Brother going Trick or Treating. Coincidentally, Dassey's Mother was away for most of the early evening, visiting her Boyfriends Mother in hospital. However both she and her Boyfriend, did recall the bonfire, which is another (albeit unfortunate) coincidence.

Now, given that just a couple of days ago, Avery gave an interview to the media about the girl that came to see him and has not been seen since, this might make that Halloween Night become a little clearer. Nope. He cannot instantly remember her name in his first interview, but we can put that down to Avery Amnesia. That others did recall detail about her on that day, is just a coincidence, but more of that later.

Now another memory lapse. Avery was asked what he was wearing that night, during those first interviews on the 5th & 6th of November. He says he could not remember. Fair enough. He has only been asked about that night a couple of times in TV interviews & a call from LE in the last couple of days. He forgot. Sure. No problem. By sheer coincidence, he has some clothes in the boot/ trunk of his car. However, his memory actually stands him in good stead here, because when asked if he was wearing any of those on Halloween less than a week ago, he is adamant that they were not the ones.

Now, this is where memory lapse works in a mysterious way. He can't remember what he was wearing, but he can remember what he wasn't, if you catch my drift. This by the way, is the night he had a bonfire with his nephew, who remembered changing out of the clothes he wore to school, put some clean jeans on out of his drawer, but then changed out of them again later in the evening, despite saying they were not covered in any of the substance he was helping to clean. (He did get bleach on them, but as many will know, bleach only shows itself after a wash.)

Back to the coincidences (which might make a policeman a little suspicious.) The same night, that two people coincidentally have a bonfire but don't tell LE, two separate people (Radant & Fabian) see the fire. One of whom, tells LE before the car was found. Speaking of coincidences, the car that was found, belonged to the girl Avery told police in early November, had been to his property several times. Memory lapse alert: During those interviews he could only vaguely describe her. (When asked what she looked like, he said ‘... Skinny.... Like my Sister' and her hair was ‘Darker…... shorter.’ ) Coincidentally, he had been asked about her by a TV crew days earlier, and her picture was plastered all over the TV for the previous 48 hours since she had been reported missing. (Ask Barb, she called home & told Dassey to put the TV on.) I don't know wether that is both a coincidence she was on the TV and /or bad memory that he couldn't remember the detail.

Coincidentally, the two other appointments Teresa had that day, could recall she wore a white shirt, blues jeans and a waist length dark jacket. SS & JE Z, both gave statements describing what Teresa wore that day. Avery is the only only out of the three that cannot remember. But that is just a coincidence.

We know Avery was cured of his Amnesia when speaking to Barb from Prison, as he recalled the fire on Halloween, and the attendance of Dassey at it. Coincidentally, Prison life must cure Amnesia, because Dassey also recalled the fire in a conversation with Barb too. Coincidence? Or she has such a soothing manner that people just tell her their inner most secrets.

Back to the fire. Coincidentally, there was a burn barrel next to the site of the bonfire. This also was in use on Halloween, and by some coincidence, some personal possessions of the missing Woman, were found in that barrel. You have guessed it, Avery forgets about using this and says that stuff was planted in that and the pit.

The last thing Avery forgets for now? His mad chained up Dog that would not let investigators near the fire pit for two days until it could be subdued. Avery coincidentally forgot that the person he claims planted evidence, would have had the same issue with his dog.

Cleaning the garage floor? No problem. Cleaning it the same night as a girl goes missing and is murdered, whilst 'forgetting’ a major bonfire & other events that evening?? Clearly, just a coincidence and a sure case of Amnesia……..
interesting view point but that doesnt prove the standard of guilt enough in my book. There is much more evidence that supports he did not kill TH and even more that police tampered the scene to support their case. REASONABLE DOUBT was shown in my view and i'm asserting Avery will be out of jail within 5 years.
 
Although I am not entirely sure that he did it, I believe that there is a lot in favor of him being guilty. The way they treated his nephew was absolutely appalling and I am so glad that, at least, if nothing else, this documentary helped him out.

I have a very hard time believing that SA was just that unlucky that many times. It just doesn't sit well.

This is an unusual wording.

"You're not entirely sure that he did it" lets stop there. IF you were a juror and felt that way you should never ever ever convict him!! No one should convict another if they are not sure of their guilt. An accused is presumed innocent not guilty and I feel many people view them the other way around. A sad social commentary.
 
interesting view point but that doesnt prove the standard of guilt enough in my book. There is much more evidence that supports he did not kill TH and even more that police tampered the scene to support their case. REASONABLE DOUBT was shown in my view and i'm asserting Avery will be out of jail within 5 years.

Well mate, it is a little more than just a view point. Each one of those coincidences can be taken from the trial transcripts. And they do not end there.

As for these coincidences being enough to convict on their own? Absolutely not. Coincidence does not make a Murderer in this case, it just provides an interesting narrative to understand how weak Avery & Dassey's stories are.

What does make a Murderer is hard evidence. Blood, DNA, Bullets, a gun owned by one of the protagonists, cremains in his burn pit & burn barrel. A confession from one of them also helps, but in this case, only served to convict the person that made it.

There is no evidence that police tampered with any of the above, or framed either of them. There is only speculation derived from a TV show. Avery has exhausted his appeals, which have included blaming other family members (which if you think about it, confirms that TH did die on the Avery yard that day.)

For Avery to be freed, there needs to be new evidence or a confession from someone not currently in prison for killing TH. We will not refer back to this post in five years time as I for one, will no doubt have forgotten about it, along with all the other conversations I have had with people that point to nothing in particular to free Avery. They just seem to hope that KZ will magic up an answer to prove the programme makers were right after all.

I started out this year, believing both of them to be innocent. However, having spent months trawling through all the documents, transcripts and interviews, it is clear the correct people are in prison for this. If there is any hard evidence to the contrary, of course, I will gladly take a look and possibly change my mind again.
 
This is an unusual wording.

"You're not entirely sure that he did it" lets stop there. IF you were a juror and felt that way you should never ever ever convict him!! No one should convict another if they are not sure of their guilt. An accused is presumed innocent not guilty and I feel many people view them the other way around. A sad social commentary.
I like ya!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk
 
Well mate, it is a little more than just a view point. Each one of those coincidences can be taken from the trial transcripts. And they do not end there.

As for these coincidences being enough to convict on their own? Absolutely not. Coincidence does not make a Murderer in this case, it just provides an interesting narrative to understand how weak Avery & Dassey's stories are.

What does make a Murderer is hard evidence. Blood, DNA, Bullets, a gun owned by one of the protagonists, cremains in his burn pit & burn barrel. A confession from one of them also helps, but in this case, only served to convict the person that made it.

There is no evidence that police tampered with any of the above, or framed either of them. There is only speculation derived from a TV show. Avery has exhausted his appeals, which have included blaming other family members (which if you think about it, confirms that TH did die on the Avery yard that day.)

For Avery to be freed, there needs to be new evidence or a confession from someone not currently in prison for killing TH. We will not refer back to this post in five years time as I for one, will no doubt have forgotten about it, along with all the other conversations I have had with people that point to nothing in particular to free Avery. They just seem to hope that KZ will magic up an answer to prove the programme makers were right after all.

I started out this year, believing both of them to be innocent. However, having spent months trawling through all the documents, transcripts and interviews, it is clear the correct people are in prison for this. If there is any hard evidence to the contrary, of course, I will gladly take a look and possibly change my mind again.
You are a great sport and open minded Hoosen_Fenger!
I know we are at complete opposite ends of this debate..yet I think it's awesome you're such a respectful sleuth!,😉

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk
 
Also, I don't think enough attention has been paid to SA horrific act of animal abuse. I understand that abusing an animal does not necessarily make a murderer, but I also don't think it is something to just brush aside and ignore. There is a lot of evidence out there linking animal abuse to later acts of violence. Kind of a "gateway" crime. That is incredibly oversimplified but does anyone else think that there is something there to look at?
BBM
I Bolded your " gateway " reference
Short answer to your question..
NO
I do not..and I LOVE animals & own cats.
There is a thread here discussing the cat incident
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?301719-Let-s-talk-about-the-cat

This is great case study info re animal cruelty ..
https://www.researchgate.net/profil..._disorders/links/00463527013ca5477a000000.pdf
 
Hi, I voted (5) I have only just watched this show & feel my head is in a spin so much to try & understand all in one go.:thinking:
 
Hi, I voted (5) I have only just watched this show & feel my head is in a spin so much to try & understand all in one go.:thinking:

Welcome to the discussion.

You need to be careful the thirst for more knowledge does not make you drunk! :) A good place to try and stop your head spinning are the Avery Trial Transcripts & Documents. There is a ton of stuff here, however a good place to start is here, which contains the very first interviews in the immediate days after TH went missing. After that, there is enough info to keep you busy until next Spring!

Happy Sleuthing!
 
I am into Statement Analysis, and have reason to suspect at least one other family committed the crime. Not to say I'm confident Steven wasn't involved, but there is clear deception and possible guilty knowledge of a sexual homicide shown in the jury testimony of other persons, whom I don't believe I am allowed to name here at this time. I do believe Steven was set up to look like the sole perpetrator, whether he committed any of the crime or knew of it himself or not, by this other family member, and when LE latched onto that idea and couldn't get Steven, they brought Brendan in and coerced a confession from him to try and save their case.
 
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