UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #16

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katydid23 said:
I don't think it would be that hard to do these things without being seen. Nurses spend long periods of time with their babies without others being around. If someone was coming down the hall, footsteps would probably be heard. It just takes a split second to suddenly look 'innocently' doing something else. Like writing notes or tucking in a baby.

No one would be looking at her while she was repetitively pumping a syringe. Except the tiny victim.
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Bbm - this actually gave me real chills

As for dr choc, it could actually be he is anon/she had a dramatic reaction because he purposely maintained a close relationship and has later on down the line exposed that. The whole “if anyone asks, you make sure I’m your reference” thing can be taken as he is really her friend/significant other and on her side. It could also be taken as if someone has concerns, I want to be first in there making sure it’s taken seriously. Almost an friends close, enemies closer.

I only say this as he did omit details about Q coming back to coch. I’m assuming Q didn’t have NEC as he told LL? I don’t know, something about this set up between them seems important.
 
Dcflag said:
Bbm - this actually gave me real chills

As for dr choc, it could actually be he is anon/she had a dramatic reaction because he purposely maintained a close relationship and has later on down the line exposed that. The whole “if anyone asks, you make sure I’m your reference” thing can be taken as he is really her friend/significant other and on her side. It could also be taken as if someone has concerns, I want to be first in there making sure it’s taken seriously. Almost an friends close, enemies closer.

I only say this as he did omit details about Q coming back to coch. I’m assuming Q didn’t have NEC as he told LL? I don’t know, something about this set up between them seems important.
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Yeah.
He blatantly lied to her.
So, who knows?
 
marynnu said:
I have no idea re. volumes of air. You can push the contents of a smaller syringe through a cannulla more quickly than with a large syringe, so I imagine the same applies to an NGT.
50/60ml syringes are only used for continuous infusions via a pump to give fluids or medication - insulin, morphine, certain antibiotics, saline + heparin into an artery etc.
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Really interesting reading Mary thankyou. Looking up neonates Stomach capacity it changes after birth. First few days is about 7ml which is nothing, 3 days expands to about thirty then ten days 45 to sixty but I think this is relative to proper term babies. Not sure about preemies.
 
esther43 said:
Tbh it seems a bit over the top to me too. I can not see the NHS telling staff they must come to A&E with that, not with 4 hour waits and ambulances stacked up in the car park.
I think it's very telling that with so much going on at the unit, that they thought it best to send LL to A&E for a scratch on her pinky or whatever..
What can they do for her that she's not able to do for herself?
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I think that different NHS Trusts and hospitals might have slightly different Policies regarding management of needlestick injuries in staff, in hospitals.

The dangers of blood-borne infections from any sharps injury are very real.

Great Ormond Street Children’s Hospital inform parents that, should a sharps injury occur, they would like to test the child’s blood (a sample may still be in hospital storage for other testing), for various viruses so that the staff member can get appropriate treatment quickly, if required.

Competent patients can consent to their blood being tested.

Any testing of a patient’s blood, when a member of staff has had a sharps injury, is done as an emergency by the lab.

The doctor in A&E would do a risk assessment of the sharps injury and the member of staff’s medical history.

Non-Responders

Some individuals are ‘non-responders’ to hepatitis B preventative injections (not always because they actually have the condition, it’s very complicated, apparently).

Some individuals need immunoglobulin injections, as soon as possible after sharps injury, for example.

www.gov.uk

Hepatitis B immunoglobulin (issued November 2023)

www.gov.uk www.gov.uk
 
Tortoise said:
Empty spaces are normally full of gas??

We're talking about his stomach, not a room.

We have heard that the procedure followed before feeding a baby is to aspirate the stomach contents.

LL told police, as she did with baby G, that babies can gulp air when they vomit.

MOO
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if babies burp then i think a certain amount of gas is probably normal in the stomach as it’s not a vacuum. I was trying to think how one would determine if the level of gas was unusual. I think on x ray the density of gas would show up especially under pressure as well as an expanded stomach capacity.

im just trying to figure out the processes and equipment involved in actually doing as alleged. I can see how a few mls of air into the intravenous line would be almost impossible to detect as unusual ie priming a line but if one was forced to use a small syringe multiple times into the ng tube then that’s a bit different. Would that process involve inserting the syringe into the tube then pushing the plunger then taking it out refilling and then repeating until you have achieved your aim? That to me is suspicious looking. Also involves allot of faffing about and extended time near the lines. Especially if the baby is in a incubator. Wouldn’t this also involve disrupting the gravity fed milk feedings? To me that sounds like a potentially complicated process involving lots of equipment and doing that without causing suspicion whilst other staff are in 5he room? Only takes one look remember and she is caught red handed. however the degree to which other staff are likely to notice the actions of other staff is also a question worthy of consideration.
 
marynnu said:
If someone wanted to push in 40mls of air, they wouldn't need a big syringe. They could just push in 10mls 4 times! You only use a 10 or 20ml syringe when gravity feeding in the normal way, no matter how big the feed.
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Sweeper2000 said:
im just trying to figure out the processes and equipment involved in actually doing as alleged. I can see how a few mls of air into the intravenous line would be almost impossible to detect as unusual ie priming a line but if one was forced to use a small syringe multiple times into the ng tube then that’s a bit different. Would that process involve inserting the syringe into the tube then pushing the plunger then taking it out refilling and then repeating until you have achieved your aim? That to me is suspicious looking. Also involves allot of faffing about and extended time near the lines. Especially if the baby is in a incubator. Wouldn’t this also involve disrupting the gravity fed milk feedings? To me that sounds like a potentially complicated process involving lots of equipment and doing that without causing suspicion whilst other staff are in 5he room? Only takes one look remember and she is caught red handed. however the degree to which other staff are likely to notice the actions of other staff is also a question worthy of consideration.
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Not sure where you're going with this but as Mary said it's normal to use a 10ml or 20ml syringe for gravity feeds, it sounds like it wouldn't be out of place for LL to have either a 10ml or 20 ml syringe.
 
Sweeper2000 said:
Really interesting reading Mary thankyou. Looking up neonates Stomach capacity it changes after birth. First few days is about 7ml which is nothing, 3 days expands to about thirty then ten days 45 to sixty but I think this is relative to proper term babies. Not sure about preemies.
Click to expand...

Interesting. I'd never tnought about it, I mean why would you!
 
Sweeper2000 said:
if babies burp then i think a certain amount of gas is probably normal in the stomach as it’s not a vacuum. I was trying to think how one would determine if the level of gas was unusual. I think on x ray the density of gas would show up especially under pressure as well as an expanded stomach capacity.

im just trying to figure out the processes and equipment involved in actually doing as alleged. I can see how a few mls of air into the intravenous line would be almost impossible to detect as unusual ie priming a line but if one was forced to use a small syringe multiple times into the ng tube then that’s a bit different. Would that process involve inserting the syringe into the tube then pushing the plunger then taking it out refilling and then repeating until you have achieved your aim? That to me is suspicious looking. Also involves allot of faffing about and extended time near the lines. Especially if the baby is in a incubator. Wouldn’t this also involve disrupting the gravity fed milk feedings? To me that sounds like a potentially complicated process involving lots of equipment and doing that without causing suspicion whilst other staff are in 5he room? Only takes one look remember and she is caught red handed. however the degree to which other staff are likely to notice the actions of other staff is also a question worthy of consideration.
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Firstly, feeds are intermittent not continuous, so would not be interrupted. You can refill a syringe with air with one hand, you'd barely need to move. I'd say if determined you could syringe in 40mls or so in a mater of a couple of minutes, if that.
 
marynnu said:
Firstly, feeds are intermittent not continuous, so would not be interrupted. You can refill a syringe with air with one hand, you'd barely need to move. I'd say if determined you could syringe in 40mls or so in a mater of a couple of minutes, if that.
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I agree .. wouldn't even be noticed ..could even have a syringe pre filled with air or fluid in a pocket ready to use
 
marynnu said:
Interesting. I'd never tnought about it, I mean why would you!
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Any information is interesting to me Mary so long as I isnt about cricket. Tbh I found it interesting to learn that a larger syringe would be more suspect.

ColourPurple said:
Not sure where you're going with this but as Mary said it's normal to use a 10ml or 20ml syringe for gravity feeds, it sounds like it wouldn't be out of place for LL to have either a 10ml or 20 ml syringe.
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Well I’m trying to figure out how we can put the alleged action into context using the info provided by the prosecution.

for instance Mary has said it might take a couple of minutes to do as alleged if it fits the info we can say it’s likely or not.

and it seems that it isn’t as easy as keeping a loaded syringe in pocket on the sly. If it’s the case that that syringe needs to be pumped a few times every time its done it increases the likelihood of discovdry. If you have to alter the incubator ie lift the lid again it’s more noticeable, if you have to stop the feed its noticeable. Literally anything involved in the alleged process would be really interesting to hear about and see if the shape fits the hole.
 
marynnu said:
Exactly. IMO we've established you could do this undetected!
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It’s not the possibility of that that is alleged, it’s the likelihood of it being done undetected within the framework of the evidence provided by the prosecution that I’m keen to figure out.
 
Sweeper2000 said:
It’s not the possibility of that that is alleged, it’s the likelihood of it being done undetected within the framework of the evidence provided by the prosecution that I’m keen to figure out.
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I'm not seeing the difference? What is this framework?
 
Sweeper2000 said:
Any information is interesting to me Mary so long as I isnt about cricket. Tbh I found it interesting to learn that a larger syringe would be more suspect.


Well I’m trying to figure out how we can put the alleged action into context using the info provided by the prosecution.

for instance Mary has said it might take a couple of minutes to do as alleged if it fits the info we can say it’s likely or not.

and it seems that it isn’t as easy as keeping a loaded syringe in pocket on the sly. If it’s the case that that syringe needs to be pumped a few times every time its done it increases the likelihood of discovdry. If you have to alter the incubator ie lift the lid again it’s more noticeable, if you have to stop the feed its noticeable. Literally anything involved in the alleged process would be really interesting to hear about and see if the shape fits the hole.
Click to expand...

I mentioned before that the feeds would not need to be stopped as they are not continuous. Why do you think it would be necessary to lift the incubator lid? Babies are accessed via portholes in the sides. Nurses do this all the time, it would not look remotely strange. JMO
 
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