Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #132

[Falling Down]

I'm undecided as to whether or not this is a serial killer. One reason is the unique nature of the crime - only 15 such crimes since '74 - that you point out. (I assume you meant abductions of 'multiple' juveniles at once.) If this guy has killed before but only a single victim at a time, perhaps he had to alter his MO to accomplish this murder. If he has killed or contemplates killing in the future he may decide multiple victims is too challenging and, again, alters his MO. LE searching in ViCAP - which is already known to be incomplete with regard to violent crimes - may not be able to relate these murders to any other. IOW, the lack of a connection to another murder or murders doesn't necessarily mean there aren't other murders. Add to that the fact that this is likely a stranger makes it harder still.

Much is made that someone out there may very well know who this is and needs to call in the tip. But if LE somewhere else isn't utilizing ViCAP on a murder they have then we have a similar situation.

I figure that when he figured out they were unaccompanied juveniles, he thought this was an opportunity to really be famous and to scare people. He accomplished a lot, in his mind, by what he did that day.

Yes I meant "pairs of juveniles" by strangers since 1974.

JMO

JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

I keep seeing this and I DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW this can be accurate! .. after all how many missing juveniles cases do
we have that are considered missing and unsolved ? how many went missing without even being documented ..and what about sex trafficking ??

Looking at the graph on this page, 30 females who were all juveniles were abducted by strangers in 1997. 15 of victims were assaulted, sexually or otherwise. But the statistics are not accumulative up to the present date.

Even though the legal definition of “abduction” involves forcing victims from one location to another, I don’t think this case can fairly be compared to abduction statistics considering the girls were also murder victims, their bodies found not far from the bridge.

https://www.researchgate.net/figure...he-Victim-and-Type-of-Location_fig3_246605161

 

[Boxer]

Amazing article. I wonder if in cases when someone is afraid of contacting the locals (there might be a few), they would consider getting in touch with California Register.

Yes.
MOO there are elements that should be addressed, from the search for two missing girls being called off at midnight, to no heat sensitive scanning helicopter being brought in and blood hounds being sent home before the suspect's in and out routes were established.
It all bears looking at.

 

[MistyWaters]

Yes.
MOO there are elements that should be addressed, from the search for two missing girls being called off at midnight, to no heat sensitive scanning helicopter being brought in and blood hounds being sent home before the suspect's in and out routes were established.
It all bears looking at.

I’m certain it bears looking at and I’d be surprised if it hasn’t already. I think the main emphasis as far as the public is concerned should continue to be identifying the killer and media coverage has been extensive in that regard. Otherwise does it really matter what we think should’ve been done when the girls were first reported missing? How would that assist in this crime being solved?

I can understand the search being a larger issue if it was determined the girls had survived throughout the night but we know that wasn’t so.

 

[minazoe]

the girls were abducted. they did not go willingly to their deaths. the moment you coerce by threat or with a weapon to move to another location, it is kidnapping.

mOO

 

[MistyWaters]

the girls were abducted. they did not go willingly to their deaths. the moment you coerce by threat or with a weapon to move to another location, it is kidnapping.

mOO

Yes but not all juveniles who are kidnapped are also murdered. Statistics also cannot tell us how many teens are missing as a result of an abduction by a person unknown to them who then later murdered them. Regardless, statistics do not prove who was the killer here. Whether it was a stranger or someone known to them, it still was an equally senseless act IMO

 

[FromGermany1]

Or store surveillance video if it is still available. Anna any Abby would be easy to recognize but LE may know the stranger.

Anna met him outside, afaik, so we don't know, if he ever went inside the market/store or sat in his car only.

 

[Boxer]

I’m certain it bears looking at and I’d be surprised if it hasn’t already. I think the main emphasis as far as the public is concerned should continue to be identifying the killer and media coverage has been extensive in that regard. Otherwise does it really matter what we think should’ve been done when the girls were first reported missing? How would that assist in this crime being solved?

I can understand the search being a larger issue if it was determined the girls had survived throughout the night but we know that wasn’t so.

It is an unsolved crime with witnesses, video, voice audio and probably a shoe print.
A suspect sketch done at the time of the crime was then released years later to supplant what had been released before.
Is there more that could be buried in these details to find the killer?

 

[FromGermany1]

There have been roughly 15 abductions of juveniles by a stranger or strangers in the U.S. since 1974, so the rarity should give people pause. Throw in the other factors in this case, and the variables the killer had to juggle and try to make work in his favor, and I believe we have a one-of-one set of crimes committed that day. Which is why I believe LE were spooked early on, there simply is nothing to compare it to when all the facts are put together, it certainly took a lot of planning.

Good post AD.

I think, the missing juveniles are important also. They also could have been kidnapped, nobody knows. Or have they already been taken into account?

 

[FromGermany1]

It's an offshoot of the optimistic belief that law enforcement knows who did it. That theme has been extremely simple to follow: Since the bridge is not well known it had to be a local. Since the bridge is very close to Delphi then local means Delphi. Since we're not solving this as soon as I expected then it has to be a false alibi. That false alibi should be easy to break via DNA but obviously we can't do that since the search party trampled all over the crime scene. Get with the program.

The catfishing angle is easily shot down by the great degree of detail and agreement regarding that morning, that Libby asked at the last minute and Kelsi originally said no. If not for those inconvenient anecdotes, then the catfishing angle would be relentlessly pushed and we wouldn't hear nearly as much about the search party and crime scene contamination. But just as the ones who do push the catfishing angle are content to ignore the description of that morning, the ones who devote to the contamination angle are more than willing to ignore the fact that the bodies were in an isolated area and we know exactly when they were discovered, and by members of the search party who were carefully selected to be in that high profile area. This wasn't Louie from Logansport skidding down the hill like a luger and crashing into the bodies while on his 6th beer of the day.

By all accounts two search parties came upon the bodies at almost the same time. One was the family member party who had discovered Libby's shoe, and the other group was following the set of footprints. Given who they were and the shocking aspect of what they encountered, I can almost guarantee this crime scene was handled far better than most. Yes, somebody might have touched the girls to see if there was any chance they were still alive. The odds of that wiping out best evidence is next to nothing.

Stranger crimes are hellish to solve. It baffles the heck out of me why that big picture truism doesn't dominate this case, as opposed to the constantly evolving rationalizations toward why they know who did it but aren't allowed to tell us.

If I would be a teenager (still) and ready for "unallowed" adventure, I would ask my grandma and my sister at the last minute as well to take me to the MHB area. I intentionally wouldn't have dressed different than every other time. I would have led the adults astray as good as I was able, if the planned adventure had been important to me and to my friend for some reason. Teenagers have their secrets and their strategies; they aren't stupid. They aren't actually disobedient, but only curious, according to their age.

 

[minazoe]

maybe they can tell us what size shoe he wears if they have a shoe print.

I want to see someone walk that bridge...a grown man , same stature, walk that bridge in the same way, hands by pockets , off to the side...someone who has never set foot, and isn't afraid to do it.

I don't want to see someone fall now...but I just want to see it, can that be done? how many tries would you need before you could sail across unbothered?

mOO

 

[Luckyzmom]

@minazoe are you alluding to familiarity as opposed to boldness ?

 

[FrostedGlass]

If I would be a teenager (still) and ready for "unallowed" adventure, I would ask my grandma and my sister at the last minute as well to take me to the MHB area. I intentionally wouldn't have dressed different than every other time. I would have led the adults astray as good as I was able, if the planned adventure had been important to me and to my friend for some reason. Teenagers have their secrets and their strategies; they aren't stupid. They aren't actually disobedient, but only curious, according to their age.

I've always had a hard time convincing myself that Abby did something she knew was forbidden unless it was important to one of them. Add to that I remain very puzzled that they would post the picture knowing how much trouble she would be in if Anna saw it. The catfishing theory remains close to the top of my theory list.

 

[Luckyzmom]

Could they have been there to meet someone from SM ? Surely LE would have found the trail online by now wouldn't they ? Did the girls think they were meeting up with boys their age ?.
That just gives me the chills MOO

 

[Spartygirl]

Carter said a lot of things.
That he carved their names in his desk.
That the killer could be in the room or very close by.
That the girls are not how you left them.
That the killer wants to know what police know.

And that there is a recent movie The Shack about a killer murdering an innocent child and the grief it caused.

Any of them could touch on something only known to police and the killer.

Agree !!!
With everything above

 

[Spartygirl]

<rsbm>

Misty, correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall from the very early days of this case, there being discussion about a shed (or shack) on RL's property where the girls were found. IIRC, RL said something to the effect of his kids or other kids used to hang out in it.

I don't think I'm totally mis-remembering, but perhaps someone else can chime in on this.

JMO

Correct
and there are a few "sheds" or "shacks" in the area along with the one on RL's property

 

[Spartygirl]

I wonder how accurate this statement is in regards to the final crime scene and/or how the Beacon map is depicted? I wish I had access to better records...

Ron Logan has owned that piece of land for 53 years and said that the discovery of the girls’ bodies on his property is something he still hasn’t been able to come to terms with.

https://www.wrtv.com/news/local-new...c7dce0e&_ga=1.136436528.1295424310.1489771536

I have more maps so not sure what exactly you are looking for.

 

[UnapologeticallyAspie]

Agreed about LE not taking everything into account. IMO they felt the weight of their experience showed that missing people in their county eventually turn up. I don't think this decision was made just by one person, however, it shared by a few that were in charge.

Not sure about the feasibility of lighting the bridge area/posting police to keep people off (Delphi didn't have many first responders) but that was just one of many perceived dangers to searchers. There's also the creek, steep hills etc. If they let a few hundred people continue all night I'm not sure first responders would have had a handle on the situation. Again - not saying they made a perfect decision, just that these were factors.

And, as pointed out, finding the crime scene in the dark and fog in the early morning hours is unlikely to make much difference from finding it around noon, from the point of evidence recovery.

But what about the possible difference between life, and death?

 

[Spartygirl]

I wonder how accurate this statement is in regards to the final crime scene and/or how the Beacon map is depicted? I wish I had access to better records...

Ron Logan has owned that piece of land for 53 years and said that the discovery of the girls’ bodies on his property is something he still hasn’t been able to come to terms with.

https://www.wrtv.com/news/local-new...c7dce0e&_ga=1.136436528.1295424310.1489771536

Beacon - Carroll County, IN - Map (schneidercorp.com)

 

[Yemelyan]

But what about the possible difference between life, and death?

I'm not in a first responder position, thankfully, where I need to make decisions between life and death for people but I presume that in situations like this LE has to take into account what is the least risk of harm to the greatest number of people. So for example, if someone is missing overnight and it is not known whether or not they are out in the elements (as was the case here), LE also has to consider how many others may be harmed searching and then make a decision. There have been plenty of missing children cases, some children much younger than this, where the official search was suspended for similar reasons. In the Delphi case, I think we've been told that finding them in the overnight hours would not have made a difference in terms of their survival. Obviously, LE didn't know at that time they were dealing with murder or even if the girls were still in the vicinity of the trails. LE didn't prevent people from staying to search if they wanted to - and people did stay, including volunteer fire fighters.

I don't know whether LE made the "right" decision in this case but I don't think that it materially affected the outcome as IMO the girls were already dead by the time the search started. As far as murders go, the bodies were found in a challenging scene from a forensics standpoint (outdoors) but were found relatively quickly, all things considered. I can't pinpoint this specifically and say the delay finding the bodies is why the crime isn't solved.