Retrial for Sentencing of Jodi Arias - 2/10 - Break

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You have to start somewhere and Dr. D is very good! 4 years of experience plus 4 years of working under somebody else, not too shabby. She certainly comes across better than the hired guns. There is not another Dr. who could have done better in this case, IMHO. She is very, very professional. Personally, if we had someone like Geff, Samuels or ALV, I would not like it at all. JA is getting a fair shake, by a professional. Let the cards fall where they may.

AW, she is at least LICENSED to practice in Arizona. None of them are. She's very good, very intelligent, and has her own practice. She does much more than just go around on speaking engagements. And I don't think her age goes against her nearly as much as poor old Fonseca who said she would consider it abuse if someone was calling after 11:00 at night. Also, she normally works with teenagers and seems to believe that it is always, ALWAYS the man who is the abuser. To her, it was Travis. Not Arias. Both she and Geffner acted like Travis and Jodi were married. In fact, Geffner several times referred to her as "Jodi Alexander." It did not matter to them that Arias moved within blocks from Travis AFTER they were no longer 'boyfriend and girlfriend'.

Here in East Tennessee, its now 1:35 am. I hope I'm not abusing anyone, by commenting at this late hour. :bedtime:
 
What is really interesting to me is that 1) JA did have Borderline Personality traits prior to meeting Travis but there is no requirement that JA was pristine before meeting him. He still did not deserve to be brutally murdered. 2) JA may have PTSD now that she committed this horrific act but it shouldn't be a mitigating factor if they have no evidence of this prior to Travis death. 3) JA was 28 (nearly) when she killed him - if she were a male would this be as big of a mitigating factor? IIRC most felons are about that age when they go to prison for a long time. 4) JA has not shown remorse except to say she wishes his family and friends weren't feeling grief (because if they felt like she did - they would feel nothing). 5) She doesn't have a criminal history but that isn't required to sentence her for her guilt in the crime itself. I know many will not agree with me but I would accept LWOP (because there is no parole in AZ). As long as she doesn't get out then society will be safe from the likes of JA. MOO

There are some specifics for Arizona in this regard.

A. Age (A.R.S. 13-701(E)(1))
“Arizona law requires that the trial court ‘consider the age of the defendant’ as a statutory mitigating circumstance when determining sentences imposed for non-capital offenses.” State v. Davolt, 207 Ariz. 191, 216, 84 P.3d 456, 481 (2004). Extreme youth or old age only becomes a mitigating factor when, because of immaturity or senility, the defendant lacks substantial judgment in committing the crime. State v. Johnson, 131 Ariz. 299, 640 P.2d 861 (1982). “When addressing the issue of young age, we look at the defendant’s level of maturity, judgment, past experience, and involvement in the crime.” State v. Bolton, 182 Ariz. 290, 314, 896 P.2d 830, 854 (1995); see also State v. Trostle, 191 Ariz. 4, 951 P.2d 869 (1997) (held that defendant “was immature and easily influenced”, that his “emotional development was at a child-like level” and that he “never has had the experience of living as an independent functioning adult).
“Age is entitled to great weight as a mitigating circumstance, especially if the defendant is a minor.” State v. Gerlaugh, 144 Ariz. 449, 461, 698 P.2d 694, 706 (1985). However, the court may find that the age of the defendant is not a mitigating factor if the defendant has a history of crime or violence. See State v. Gerlaugh, 144 Ariz. at 461; see also State v. Cazares 205, Ariz. 425, 72 P.3d 355, (Ariz. App. Div. 2,2003). Furthermore, where the defendant is not of a young age, even if he doesn’t have
for The Defense -- Volume 20, Issue 
Page 0
a criminal record, it will not be considered a mitigating factor. State v. Spears, 184 Ariz. 277, 908 P.2d 1062, (1996) (held that 33 years of age is too old to use age as a mitigating factor).
http://www.maricopa.gov/pdweb/docs/2010/201002-04-ftd.pdf

I found a couple of things of interest in this. First, I now see why the DT is being so strident about JA not having a criminal history since "the age of the defendant is not a mitigating factor if the defendant has a history of crime or violence". Then, since State v Spears "held that 33 was too old" to be a mitigating factor, I can now see why the DT is trying to imply JA was younger at the time of the murder than she was--also why LKN was asking Dr. D about birthdates. The DT is desperate and needs every mitigator they can find so they are repeating that she was young at every opportunity.
 
What is really interesting to me is that 1) JA did have Borderline Personality traits prior to meeting Travis but there is no requirement that JA was pristine before meeting him. He still did not deserve to be brutally murdered. 2) JA may have PTSD now that she committed this horrific act but it shouldn't be a mitigating factor if they have no evidence of this prior to Travis death. 3) JA was 28 (nearly) when she killed him - if she were a male would this be as big of a mitigating factor? IIRC most felons are about that age when they go to prison for a long time. 4) JA has not shown remorse except to say she wishes his family and friends weren't feeling grief (because if they felt like she did - they would feel nothing). 5) She doesn't have a criminal history but that isn't required to sentence her for her guilt in the crime itself.

I know many will not agree with me but I would accept LWOP (because there is no parole in AZ). As long as she doesn't get out then society will be safe from the likes of JA. MOO


According to this latest sentencing chart, I'm guessing most here believe natural life should be imposed, if the DP doesn't get handed down by the jury. The fear is that JSS will give her just life, allowing her to become eligible for release after 25 years and from the looks of what's listed below, to basically work, perhaps get married and have conjugal visits, etc. Perhaps AZ can jump in and let us know what "perks" a "lifer" could access that a "natural lifer" could not?

http://www.azcourts.gov/Portals/0/CriminalSentencingCt/2014_2015_SentencingChart.pdf
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FIRST AND SECOND DEGREE MURDER
1st Degree Murder
Sentence of death or imprisonment for life or natural life, as determined in accordance with
the procedures provided in § 13-752. Note, life is only available if the offense is committed
by a person under eighteen years of age or the person is convicted of felony murder. A person
under eighteen years of age who is sentenced to life is eligible for parole after serving the
minimum sentence regardless of whether the crime was committed on or before January 1,
1994. A person who is sentenced to natural life is not eligible for commutation, parole, work
furlough, work release, or release from confinement on any basis.
If the person is sentenced
to life, the person shall not be released on any basis until having served 25 calendar years if
the murdered person was 15 or more years of age and 35 calendar years if the murdered
person was under 15 years of age. A.R.S. § 13-751.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
LWOP can be commuted in the future. The statutes can be changed. JSS cannot control a sentence by giving LWOP.

Only way she avoids DP is Jury nullification, which I put squarely on JSS for allowing brainwash filibuster defense.
 
This is a blunt question. Why would the prosecution hire such a young psychologist who had only been licensed to practise four years earlier? Surely JM could have predicted that this would give the DT reason to discredit her. Why take that chance?

As good as Dr. DM is, her years of experience, in comparison to Dr. Geffner, has indeed allowed the DT to capitalize on this.

Unfortunately, imo, the jurors questions about her "stated" experience (before being licensed) and her discrediting Dr. Geffner's testing, wouldn't have been such an "issue" with an older expert with many years of practise.

Anyway, this is something that I was concerned about in the original trial, and although ALV and Samuels were totally discredited, this jury missed how pathetic the DT experts were, despite their years of experience.

Here is one of the defense team expert witnesses. He testified last year in the first trial and again this time. He 'founded' the 'institute' that includes Fonseca. This was the defense team 'expert' witnesses. Both 'older'....But neither are licensed in Arizona, and mainly they are known for 'speaking engagements', from what I understand.

Here's Gr. Geffner: ▶ Jodi Arias' Awkward Defense Witness Robert Geffner Coughs, Burps, and Spills Water on the Stand – YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vux4_F4VK4g

Here is Fonseca. Her specialty is working with teenaged abusers and victims.

Jodi Arias trial update: Prosecutor Juan Martinez digs into defense witness - ABC15 Arizona
http://www.abc15.com/news/region-ph...utor-juan-martinez-digs-into-defense-witness-

(excerpt)
On cross examination, Martinez came out swinging very much the same way he did with Arias’ experts Alyce LaViolette and Dr. Richard Samuels during the 2013 murder trial.
He attacked Dr. Fonseca’s notion that Arias was a victim who suffered in silence, bringing up that as a teenager when Arias was slapped by her father Bill, she verbally swung back by saying “F---- you Bill” before leaving her Yreka home.
Martinez asked Fonseca if that was a sign of a victim suffering in silence.
He also pointed out that Fonseca could not diagnose or interview Alexander because he was dead and she chose not to interview Travis' friends, Chris and Sky Hughes, over their damaging emails.

I'd much prefer Dr. DeMarte over either one of these older 'expert witnesses'.
 
Juror Questions from today...

Thanks, ElleElle!!!

Catching up again.

Wow. Good questions from jury and good answers from Demarte. I think someone on the jury is skilled the same as Demarte to be asking such touch questions. It makes me wonder if the juror was just testing Demarte to see if she knew some of the answers which she did.

Because they didnt ask Nurmis witnesses anything of the sort.
 
Regarding this juror question:

"17. How does dissociation play into BPD? It's a technique to distance oneself from an environment that is anxiety-provoking. One of the symptoms of BPD is dissociation and paranoia."

It sounds as though this juror watched the first trial. Has dissociation even been discussed in this trial?

It was tweeted about on Dec.15, 2014 from Dr.G's testimony.

"Monica Lindstrom ‏@monicalindstrom 9s9 seconds ago
Dissociation is more of an unconscious process - #JodiArias scored an 89

Monica Lindstrom ‏@monicalindstrom 7s7 seconds ago
Major coping mechanism is dissociation and #JodiArias scored high on this

Gia Vang ‏@Gia_Vang 16s16 seconds ago
Dissociation: blanking, blocking out don't want to deal w/ unpleasant situations #jodiarias ranks high according to psychologist.
"
 
Still, it was unclear from the tweets whether Willmott came back to court after the noon recess. Does anyone know?

This is from todays tweets. Its from JMPSP. Willmott was there.
Juan Martinez Prosecutor Support Page
9 hrs ·

Wild About Trial @WildAboutTrial · 2m2 minutes ago
Juan, Flores, & Alexander sisters return from chambers. Sisters look somber.

Nurmi, Willmott, & Maria return from chambers.
 
I agree, but it also made me wonder if she thought that other people do this kind of thing too.

IIRC, she even told Sky that she did that which I found very strange.

I'm sure it raised huge red flags for Sky.

She also admits in the 48 hours interview and in her letter to the Alexanders. Each time she admits she knows it was wrong but she was justified.
 
I'm having trouble following the BPD stuff.

If you have BPD do you intentionally do this manipulative stuff or do you think that what you're doing is normal.

An example would be: Did JA think ALL people have the right to check their significant others SM accounts if they thought they were being cheated on?

From the beginning I have thought that JA truly believed that if a jury heard just how much TA "put her through" they would totally understand why she killed him.

I'm not sure I'm making myself clear, but with BPD do they know they are being manipulative and don't care as long as it gets them what they want, or do they not realize what they're doing and just think everyone manipulates like that?

TIA...hope I made sense.

To put it simply, they think they're a special snowflake and that the rules shouldn't apply to them, but yes, they do know there are rules and they do know right from wrong, they just don't care to abide by the rules if it comes between them and what they want.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?203866-TRANSCRIPTS-of-the-Interrogation-Videos-of-Jodi-Arias
"19:17
JA: Umm…I think that…and this doesn’t make it right. I think that, you know…being a convert, you know, I’ve had…I’ve… I’ve been …I’ve had a couple of serious relationships before where I was intimate with a few people, and…it’s kind of silly, but I used to always joke that…umm…regardless of what the Bible says, and yes, I’m Christian, I just live my life by the 10 Commandments, and that’s my…those are my rules dot dot dot dot dot… you know…Thou Shalt Not this or that, but it doesn’t say (JA Whispers) “Thou Shalt Not Fornicate” (giggles) so, I just.. I just used to joke about that.
"
 
I know what you mean, but I think manipulation and narcissism are beasts of their own, and I don't think they can bring that up because it mischaracterizes her.

Alot of people suffer BPD, heck, some say Marilyn Monroe had BPD.

The book I'm reading on BPD says Princess Diana had BPD.
 
I have a feeling that she will get a life sentence, the deliberations have gone on for so long it seems evident that there is a real hesitation to give her the death penalty.

This is such an awful case, her diagnosis of a personality disorder (which I believe) make sentencing that much harder as she is not psychotic despite her disordered thought process. I think she and Travis were the "perfect storm" her attempts to keep him lead to his mistreatment and disrespect if her which exacerbated her illness. I know this may come across as victim blaming, I'm not at all- no one deserves to die the way he did, but if that was my sister being treated in the same manner I'd be quick to get him out if her life.
 
If anyone is interested, here is a collection of 108 Easy Mitigating Factors.
http://www.fpdaz.org/assets/panel/108 Easy Mitigating Factors November 1, 2005.pdf

And, FWIW, here is the The Thinking Advocate's List of Mitigating Factors from The Sentencing Project.
http://sentencingproject.org/doc/publications/listofmitigatingfactors.pdf

Probable emotional trigger warning. This is a devil's advocatish kind of rant that may have dire consequences for some readers blood pressure. You may want to skip the next bit entirely and just look at the information in these two sources. I was amazed at how many mitigating factors exist and can understand why the DT would need a specialist in this area.

Rant: The DT is having to fight for every single one of the pitifully few mitigating factors they can offer the court on JA's behalf. It can't be easy, and I can sort of understand why LKN is so angry. He wanted to just get away from JA and was denied by JSS. I'm sure he's thinking he'll be d**ned if an appeals court will find he was ineffective counsel. So, IMO, he's spinning mitigating factors out of spiderwebs and moonbeams in an effort to create the illusion that JA was young and vulnerable at the time of the crime, and, because she is somewhat malleable because of her youth, she is capable of being rehabilitated back into society. He has to, because he has nothing else to offer on her behalf. Nothing.

He can't point to her "excellent employment record"*. He can't tell the jury that his client can be "successfully treated"* for her disorder. He can't direct the jury's attention to documentation of his client's "exemplary"* behaviour following her arrest. The defendant is not "repentant and contrite"*. His client has not by a "plea of guilty aided in ensuring the prompt and certain application of correctional measures"* to her. He can't even claim that "the passing of sentence was unduly delayed"* since the DT has been responsible for most of the delays involved. Claims of her abusive childhood seem sketchy at best, IMO.

So, he has her age (which I still think is questionable as a mitigator) and her lack of criminal record (though, as has previously been pointed out by JM, not a lack criminal behaviour). So that leaves the DT with the most distasteful of options. "The victim(s) provoked the crime to a substantial degree, or other evidence that misconduct by victim contributed substantially to the criminal episode."* That's it. And, it seems to me, that is why the DT keeps implying that Travis Alexander was a pervert (disproven, I think, by JM) and an abusive partner (also disproven, I think, by JM). That's all they've got.

A villain is the hero of his own story. So here, in his story (IMO), LKN is striving against all the odds to get his client LWP or LWOP rather than the DP. He is friendless (JW is not his friend, IMO. The two have been tied to this case by the court, not a mutual desire to offer a defence.) He is unappreciated (JA is ungrateful, irritating, and extraordinarily difficult to deal with, IMO.) He is outmanned (I think his experts are no match for the State's experts). His work will be mercilessly analyzed and judged (in appeal after appeal, IMO). So he is digging into what he has--an understanding of the law. He is looking for loopholes (I think to protect what is left of his reputation. He does not, IMO, want anyone to fault him for missing a technical detail. He does not want to be seen as ineffective.) And, IMO, he's looking for one person to have enough doubt to hang the jury and take the DP off the table. It's a monumental task, and he is JA's only hope. (It's his story, remember?) He's standing between her and the gurney, and the court has assigned him the task to keep JA from execution. He has been ordered to take on the role of advocate for one of the most vile, unlikeable, uncharismatic, unrepentant, pretentious, posturing, hateful liars in existence.

If I understand it correctly, a defence attorney is not just defending his client when he/she takes on a case. A defence attorney is defending the rights of every person in the city/county/state/country by holding the state accountable for every action taken in a court of law. So, Nurmi, by vigorously defending JA, is making sure that the next person in an Arizona courtroom will not have his/her rights trampled. He is upholding the rule of law by not allowing public opinion to influence a decision regarding his client's sentence. In a sense, he's making sure that justice remains blind to any factors extraneous to the crime before the court. It's possible, IMO, that he sees his actions as holding JM and his team, and his witnesses, to the highest standards because only by doing so can he fulfill his obligation as an officer of the court to be sure that the court system will be fair to people who, like his client IMO, are unlikeable. Fairness doesn't mean they are found not guilty nor does it mean that they go unpunished. It's just that their guilt is proven beyond a doubt.

So, although I believe JA is guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt, and I hate the way the DT is treating the State's witnesses and I would have no problem voting in favour of the DP in this case, I sort of see where LKN is coming from. He's no Atticus Finch, but he's fighting a losing battle with everything at his disposal. JMO.

*The Thinking Advocate's List of Mitigating Factors.
 
In Nurmi's latest motion he says that because of JA's mental illness she is unable to testify in open court. If she were decide to testify in the sir rebuttal, could Nurmi be sanctioned for lying in the motion?

Jesus! That is the biggest load of (insert bad words here).
 
I have a feeling that she will get a life sentence, the deliberations have gone on for so long it seems evident that there is a real hesitation to give her the death penalty.

This is such an awful case, her diagnosis of a personality disorder (which I believe) make sentencing that much harder as she is not psychotic despite her disordered thought process. I think she and Travis were the "perfect storm" her attempts to keep him lead to his mistreatment and disrespect if her which exacerbated her illness. I know this may come across as victim blaming, I'm not at all- no one deserves to die the way he did, but if that was my sister being treated in the same manner I'd be quick to get him out if her life.

BBM - Ahhh, but would you have kept her out of his? It was his home she had invaded after all, correct?:thinking: Just reading TA's journal: https://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2015/02/03/travis-last-two-months/ "

April 10, 2008.
"I didn’t speak to Jodi for the entire day. Wow. I think that would never happen. I loved it. No negativity, no distractions. I’m sure it was good for her too. Anyhow that’s about it. Life is wonderful."



He sounds pretty happy to be rid of her imo. Yes, the *advertiser censored*umption is that he wasn't turning down all the sex fantasies but there's absolutely no proof other than the sex tape that they actually did anything beyond a few times that TA himself referenced on the sextape. We can't trust any emails or even texts and the few pics that show them nude do not show them together, in fact all they show is TA with some lubricant and then some separate shots of JA with a different kind of lubricant. Anyone that says TA must've taken the pics of JA doesn't seem to understand that anyone that has manipulated cameras for 17 or so years, iirc from JA's secret testimony, would not have a problem with setting up a timer and taking rear end selfies.

Anyway, last time I checked, TA is still the victim in this murder trial and although JA and her DT don't have a problem speaking ill of the dead, I do.
 
Here is one of the defense team expert witnesses. He testified last year in the first trial and again this time. He 'founded' the 'institute' that includes Fonseca. This was the defense team 'expert' witnesses. Both 'older'....But neither are licensed in Arizona, and mainly they are known for 'speaking engagements', from what I understand.

Here's Gr. Geffner: ▶ Jodi Arias' Awkward Defense Witness Robert Geffner Coughs, Burps, and Spills Water on the Stand – YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vux4_F4VK4g

Here is Fonseca. Her specialty is working with teenaged abusers and victims.

Jodi Arias trial update: Prosecutor Juan Martinez digs into defense witness - ABC15 Arizona
http://www.abc15.com/news/region-ph...utor-juan-martinez-digs-into-defense-witness-

(excerpt)
On cross examination, Martinez came out swinging very much the same way he did with Arias’ experts Alyce LaViolette and Dr. Richard Samuels during the 2013 murder trial.
He attacked Dr. Fonseca’s notion that Arias was a victim who suffered in silence, bringing up that as a teenager when Arias was slapped by her father Bill, she verbally swung back by saying “F---- you Bill” before leaving her Yreka home.
Martinez asked Fonseca if that was a sign of a victim suffering in silence.
He also pointed out that Fonseca could not diagnose or interview Alexander because he was dead and she chose not to interview Travis' friends, Chris and Sky Hughes, over their damaging emails.

I'd much prefer Dr. DeMarte over either one of these older 'expert witnesses'.

You need to add this... for Dr.D :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=WCveq7OwXxY
 
Here is one of the defense team expert witnesses. He testified last year in the first trial and again this time. He 'founded' the 'institute' that includes Fonseca. This was the defense team 'expert' witnesses. Both 'older'....But neither are licensed in Arizona, and mainly they are known for 'speaking engagements', from what I understand.

Here's Gr. Geffner: ▶ Jodi Arias' Awkward Defense Witness Robert Geffner Coughs, Burps, and Spills Water on the Stand – YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vux4_F4VK4g

Here is Fonseca. Her specialty is working with teenaged abusers and victims.

Jodi Arias trial update: Prosecutor Juan Martinez digs into defense witness - ABC15 Arizona
http://www.abc15.com/news/region-ph...utor-juan-martinez-digs-into-defense-witness-

(excerpt)
On cross examination, Martinez came out swinging very much the same way he did with Arias’ experts Alyce LaViolette and Dr. Richard Samuels during the 2013 murder trial.
He attacked Dr. Fonseca’s notion that Arias was a victim who suffered in silence, bringing up that as a teenager when Arias was slapped by her father Bill, she verbally swung back by saying “F---- you Bill” before leaving her Yreka home.
Martinez asked Fonseca if that was a sign of a victim suffering in silence.
He also pointed out that Fonseca could not diagnose or interview Alexander because he was dead and she chose not to interview Travis' friends, Chris and Sky Hughes, over their damaging emails.

I'd much prefer Dr. DeMarte over either one of these older 'expert witnesses'.

BBM

Why are they allowed, any of them, to diagnose while not diagnosing CMJA?

Is it correct that LaV, Samuels, MF and Geffner are all not licensed in Arizona? So even if they did PTSD tests on her why are they allowed?

I'm so sick of this garbage.
 
The odd questions about triggers and stimuli would be related to PTSD. My son and nephew have PTSD from the Iraq War and their trigger is casinos because of the large crowds and the noise from the slot machines.


Hi garth.

I don't know if this is PSTD or not but I could not go near dogs for years, especially Alsatians. I used to have dreams about dogs barking in my face. I used to cross the street if I saw a dog as a child and into my teens. Anything that sounded like a bark, or if I heard a bark even on TV, I was in a ball crying.

One day this happened (hearing a bark on TV, I freaked out...I was about 14/15) and my mum laughed at me and I told her it wasn't funny. Then she said to me "this reminds me of when I left you outside a shop in your pram (so I would've been about two years old) and a lady had a dog and had to come in to tell me you were crying".

That night I had a dream about the whole thing. I was outside the shop, lady came past with her Alsatian, it barked in my face, I cried, my mum came out and told me it was only a dog, shut up.

I had the memory just not exactly until mum mentioned it. This is what gets me about CMJA saying she was sexually abused at age 5-6 and doesn't remember anything. I have got a lot of traumatic memories from before that age, some I didn't know all of until my mum, dad or older sister filled in the bits I was missing (and wondered if it really happened until they confirmed) and some I totally remember and wish I didn't (and mum freaked out when I tried to bring it up).

I watched an episode of Crime Time with Jim Clemente and he said CMJA fog would not be so specific. I can't stand her.

I'm gonna shut up now.

Love to your son and nephew (okay I'll shut up now).
 
In Nurmi's latest motion he says that because of JA's mental illness she is unable to testify in open court. If she were decide to testify in the sir rebuttal, could Nurmi be sanctioned for lying in the motion?

Sanction for lying sounds reasonable to me but he's been doing it for many months and so far no consequences. I'm beginning to think he could come to court drunk and not be sanctioned.
 
I have a feeling that she will get a life sentence, the deliberations have gone on for so long it seems evident that there is a real hesitation to give her the death penalty.

This is such an awful case, her diagnosis of a personality disorder (which I believe) make sentencing that much harder as she is not psychotic despite her disordered thought process. I think she and Travis were the "perfect storm" her attempts to keep him lead to his mistreatment and disrespect if her which exacerbated her illness. I know this may come across as victim blaming, I'm not at all- no one deserves to die the way he did, but if that was my sister being treated in the same manner I'd be quick to get him out if her life.

Leis, the deliberations haven't even started. This is the sentencing phase. The jurors will begin deliberations AFTER closings. I doubt deliberations will last more than five days. That's my guess anyway.
 
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