CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #16 *ARREST*

[MsBetsy]

Ive never been Christmas tree shopping. Is it something that people tend to do as a family? Is it inconvenient for a single parent to take along a small child? Is it a "fun activity" that someone, who was excited for the holiday, would want to take part in?

I am a single parent and my daughter has always wanted to pick out our tree for Christmas. It can definitely be an exciting thing for a child and a tradition that many families participate in.

 

[ludakristen]

yes
they get a bit of free pass toxic women!
thee are just as many cold hearted cruel women out there as men.
its a personality type not gender imo

there are plenty molly martens out there killing beautiful men too

moo

The rates of violence committed by men against women is exponentially higher than the other way around. It's not even comparable. I really do encourage you to do some research on it before dismissing it outright.

 

[PrairieWind]

I am a single parent and my daughter has always wanted to pick out our tree for Christmas. It can definitely be an exciting thing for a child and a tradition that many families participate in.

It can be a great tradition. If you are going to the forest to cut your own, go with a group. It’s safer and more fun.

 

[NanZDrew]

I met my abuser through mutual friends - 6 different friends had him in their circles. Not one of them had any idea about him - they all thought he was great. Please don't assume that people are what they say they are in person either. Most don't understand themselves or know who or what they are yet, unless they have failed relationships behind them. They are charming, charismatic, smart, funny, and share your interests. They are master manipulators. Unfortunately, it is more likely the man you are interested in is engaging in unsavory behaviors than not. But most are not murderers. They ruin your life in other ways and most women don't realize it until it gets beyond the point of no return. The reason women are murdered by men they love is toxic masculinity, the patriarchy, and the entitlement and privilege that men are raised with, at home and in the culture at large. It is so beyond anything women can understand. Women live to help and please. men live to be pleased and to be catered to. Their outrage at not being treated the way they believe they deserve is what causes this violence. That and their lack of empathy and lack of ability to love, lack of executive function, and proclivity toward risk taking and low impulse control. And their grandiosity - they are better and smarter than everyone else. What they believe is what is right and no one knows any better. not accountable to anyone - even the law.

Emotional self-regulation and basic psychological development (and lack thereof) as children creates most of these issues. Toxic masculinity. Boys don't cry. Be a "good" boy. Don't be "bad". Parents who can't help their children identify their feelings and learn to manage them, and to distinguish feelings from actions. Parents who ignore or deny their children's feelings. Parents who punish kids for "acting out", like expressing normal, healthy emotions. That's when kids start splitting others into all good and all bad, and projecting bad behaviors onto others - unable to see themselves as responsible. If kids aren't able to mentalize - to understand the mental states of themselves and others - a form of intellectual empathy, or to see themselves as separate from others and to accept themselves (including their *bad* feelings) as worthy and valuable, it's going to end up damaging other people.

Rather than make this about men or women, I would say "givers" and "takers." Takers look for someone who is giving so that they can take everything they can get. Not all women and giving and pleasing. I have known some truly toxic, evil and manipulative women. I have known some good and caring men. We all have the capacity to be either good or evil although some people are bent more in one direction or the other.

 

[WhimsicalWillow]

Based on observing PF’s interactions with reporters, I believe he is an arrogant, angry man.

KB was successful. PF’s Mom was a nurse. I think PF, especially with being the youngest, was a “mama’s boy” and looking to always please her.

I think PF had his mother care for the baby when it was PF’s child custody arrangement days (during the week?).

Perhaps KB broke up with PF. Would he have been able to handle watching his beautiful, independent, successful ex leave him with the baby all week while she enjoyed her career and went on dates?

Would he have been bitter and jealous?

Maybe KB wanted to move back to Idaho to be near her family and have her mother watch the baby during the week instead of PF’s Mom. Would PF be upset about that?

 

[k-mac]

The rates of violence committed by men against women is exponentially higher than the other way around. It's not even comparable. I really do encourage you to do some research on it before dismissing it outright.

absolutely! no argument there
that wasn't actually the point.
thank you for your encouragement though.....
I wasn't stating facts or numbers or murder ratios
toxic women are in fast numbers as men.
nowhere did I "dismiss anything outright" thanks


moo means my opinion only.

 

[NanZDrew]

We cut our own tree. We get a permit from the US Forest service and go to the national forest. There are a few areas off limits but most of it is open. It’s a lot of fun, but very cold and snowy. It’s not something you should do alone. Bayou should go in a group. Help with cutting and carrying and loading the tree and help if you get stuck in the snow which is very possible. The forest we go to is huge and rather remote so you won’t see any other people usually. It’s beautiful .

That sounds amazing!!! In Texas you go to the store, cut from your own farm, or go to a commercial farm that sometimes has some activities. Sometimes I think it would be nice to be in a place that likes snow, but pretty sure I would only like it for a day or two.

Given that she mentioned a Christmas tree, this would have been a perfect scenario in a remote location. Choke her out and leave her there. That would explain the 2 vehicles in the driveway. But they found some evidence happened in her home that throws that theory out.

 

[WhimsicalWillow]

The more I think about this, the more convinced I am that Kelsey’s murder was committed for custody of their child.

Solicitation proves premeditation, which rules out a rage killing.

It doesn’t appear that <modsnipped>Pat would have profited from her death (so no direct financial motive).

Generally in “If I can’t have you, then no one will” killings, the perpetrator doesn’t solicit a murder, rather, he does it himself.

I do think he did end up doing it himself, but the solicitation negates this for me regardless.

With Kelsey out of the picture, no worries about shared custody or child support.

This is the only motive that makes sense to me, at this point.

I’ve thought about this however, we don’t know if PF even cared for the baby on his custody arrangement days. Perhaps his mother did.

A man who is able to kill the mother of his child is not one that is nurturing. Thus, I don’t think PF’s motive was over taking full custody of their daughter.

I believe KB broke up with him and he felt burned by her. I can envision an angry and jealous ex plotting the murder of his beautiful, successful, independent wife. It’s possible PF’s ego couldn’t handle being saddled with the baby all week while she enjoyed her career and would’ve been free to go on dates.

I also believe it’s possible KB wanted to move to Idaho to have her mother watch the baby instead. I’m not sure how PF would’ve taken that given I imagine his mother was closely bonded to the baby.

 

[NanZDrew]

thank you for your encouragement.
I wasn't stating facts or numbers or murder ratios
toxic women are in fast numbers as men.
nowhere did I "dismiss anything outright" thank you.


moo mes my opinion only.

I detest the term "toxic masculinity." I like manly men. Some of the biggest, strongest, most masculine men that I have known were gentle, loving and protective of their women.

I really don't see PF as being that masculine. He seemed more like a loser to me, insecure, angry, and antisocial.

 

[ludakristen]

I detest the term "toxic masculinity." I like manly men. Some of the biggest, strongest, most masculine men that I have known were gentle, loving and protective of their women.

I really don't see PF as being that masculine. He seemed more like a loser to me, insecure, angry, and antisocial.

Toxic masculinity has nothing to do with being big, manly, strong and masculine. It's exactly how you just described PF, actually.

 

[LAHOLLA]

Honestly I think motive comes down to control, period.

Whether he wanted to control KB so she could never move on or whether he wanted to control baby K or any other number of reasons that he felt like his control was slipping, control (or lack of) is what motivated him.

MOO.

 

[LAHOLLA]

I hope you guys had a good Christmas. We had a nice, quiet one and I’m glad it’s over

 

[WhimsicalWillow]

@EmilyVan, but respectfully, the conventional values used to be shoved down people's throats because pregnancy followed intimacy. Now that women are able to control their cycles, the attitudes changed. IMO, societal mores merely follow technology, and no one is to be blamed..

As to kids, biology is biology. To remember "the Song of Songs", Shulamith was a 13-year old "young woman". In old times, premarital sex was a sin, but girls and boys would be customarily wed off immediately after puberty, because average lifespan would be 20-25 years. They would become intimate way earlier than we do, so maybe, we are becoming conventional?

KB was 28 when she had a baby, PF, 32. Pretty mature people, it seems.

@EmilyVan As a 20-something Christian, parents fail when they are overbearing and force their own ideals onto their children. When children become adults, it’s their decision to decide who to marry, when to “consummate/marry”, when to/if have children, how many children, sharing in the household tasks, who handles the finances, joint financial accounts vs. independent financial accounts, etc.

I am a Christian, lived with my husband prior to marriage, and I recommend it. I didn’t know who he “really” was until after I lived with him for two years. We are happily married and it will be 7 years soon. I live near a big city where most women have careers, live together to get to “really” know someone before marrying, and wait to have children until mid-late thirties.

There’s nothing KB’s Mom could have done to stop PF from murdering her. Unfortunately, there is no way a mother can protect her own daughter in this situation.

We, women, need to learn how to protect ourselves. We need to, on our own, make decisions that will keep us safe. It’s important for us women to become educated, have the ability to support ourselves (like KB did), and make safe decisions when dating. We women appreciate and love our parents advice but most of us need to experience more life in order to truly understand our parents’ wisdom. Additionally, we need to choose to take our parent’s faith as our own or not to. Perhaps KB was no longer an Adventist. I don’t think it’s been confirmed if she attended an Adventist church in CO? Perhaps KB converted to a different denomination or became too busy to attend a church, being a mom of a one year old (and dealing with PF).

It’s crucial that when on a date, we women let someone know their name, number, address and where we are going. Most of us will text this information to a friend, co-worker, or a non-overbearing mother. Unfortunately, not all women do this. However, a mother that is open, non-overbearing, and non-judgmental is more likely to gain the trust of their adult child.

WHY would a fellow 20-something text their mom information on their date that would keep them safe IF their mom is adamant that she waits to have save herself for marriage? She would not. A 20-something would rather take huge risks than confide in her mother and risk the shame breaking her heart over not waiting until marriage.

Parents can help keep their adult children safe by telling them they will not judge them for their dates or hooking up. Almost everyone my age goes on dating sites like KB and uses Tinder. Keep them safe by letting them know you won’t judge or shame their decisions.

Mothers can do what they can to share information to help us younger adult women to protect ourselves but the way most people learn is from making a mistake. Additionally, it’s been proven in research studies that we learn best from our peers.

 

[NanZDrew]

I hope you guys had a good Christmas. We had a nice, quiet one and I’m glad it’s over

It's crazy how much time, effort, and anticipation that we put in to it, and POOF it is over.

 

[MCDRAW]

@EmilyVan As a 20-something Christian, parents fail when they are overbearing and force their own ideals onto their children. When children become adults, it’s their decision to decide who to marry, when to “consummate/marry”, when to/if have children, how many children, sharing in the household tasks, who handles the finances, joint financial accounts vs, independent financial accounts, etc.

I am a Christian, lived with my husband prior to marriage, and I recommend it. I didn’t know who he “really” was until after I lived with him for two years. We are happily married and it will be 7 years soon.

There’s nothing KB’s Mom could have done to stop PF from murdering her. Unfortunately, there is no way a mother can protect her own daughter in this situation.

We, women, need to learn how to protect ourselves. We need to, on our own, make decisions that will keep us safe. It’s important for us women to become educated, have the ability to support ourselves (like KB did), and make safe decisions when dating.

It’s crucial that when on a date, we women let someone know their name, number, address and where we are going. Most of us will text this information to a friend, co-worker, or a non-overbearing mother.

Mothers can do what they can to share information to help us younger adult women to protect ourselves but the way most people learn is from making a mistake. Additionally, it’s been proven in research studies that we learn best from our peers.

Just because you live with someone prior to marriage, certainly doesn't mean you will know them better. It may or may not help, but some people only allow you to see what they want you to see. My husband and I did not live together before marriage and we are celebrating 33 years. My daughter lived with her husband before marriage for 3 years. I said, well I don't guess this first year is so bad since you lived together. She said, No it is still hard. It is a lot different than living together. What she meant by that, I don't know because I didn't question her. I just think some people are very good at hiding their real self.

 

[MsBetsy]

I’ve thought about this however, we don’t know if PF even cared for the baby on his custody arrangement days. Perhaps his mother did.

A man who is able to kill the mother of his child is not one that is nurturing. Thus, I don’t think PF’s motive was over taking full custody of their daughter.

I believe KB broke up with him and he felt burned by her. I can envision an angry and jealous ex plotting the murder of his beautiful, successful, independent wife. It’s possible PF’s ego couldn’t handle being saddled with the baby all week while she enjoyed her career and would’ve been free to go on dates.

I also believe it’s possible KB wanted to move to Idaho to have her mother watch the baby instead. I’m not sure how PF would’ve taken that given I imagine his mother was closely bonded to the baby.

I think it is possible that he bonded with the child and was nurturing towards her while also being hostile and resentful towards Kelsey. But I do believe his plans for his daughters upbringing differed from that of Kelseys.
Maybe Kelsey bought the Townhouse in anticipation of the three of them living there as a family. Maybe he was perfectly comfortable living on the ranch with his mom, and had tried to convince her to live there as well.
He likely was possesive of both the baby and Kelsey. One he could control, the other he could not. Until, of course, he murdered her. Imo

 

[MCDRAW]

This is incorrect in regards to custody. Assuming he is on the birth certificate and absent a court order on custody he has equal rights to the child. Now, he couldn’t forcibly take the child from her, but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t have a custodial right.

Doesn't an agreement have to be in place? I really don't know much about this, so just wondering.

 

[MCDRAW]

It came from Kelsey's mom in an interview. She expressed that PF and baby may be going out to look for a tree. Perhaps while KB prepared dinner? Seems early for getting a tree but maybe this is what she told her mom that morning. Could be that PF suggested this to KB in a conversation we know nothing about while in fact he was planning to end her life that afternoon. MOO

They certainly lived a strange life for an engaged couple. I haven't kept up so I may have missed it but were they really still engaged?

 

[WhimsicalWillow]

Just because you live with someone prior to marriage, certainly doesn't mean you will know them better. It may or may not help, but some people only allow you to see what they want you to see. My husband and I did not live together before marriage and we are celebrating 33 years. My daughter lived with her husband before marriage for 3 years. I said, well I don't guess this first year is so bad since you lived together. She said, No it is still hard. It is a lot different than living together. What she meant by that, I don't know because I didn't question her. I just think some people are very good at hiding their real self.

I think it’s because some people still choose to marry (or remain married) to a person that’s “hard to live with” if they feel they can tolerate their issues or if they feel they could end up with someone that has even worse issues. Everyone will have faults and many times, it’s about choosing what you can tolerate.

 

[katydid23]

I’ve thought about this however, we don’t know if PF even cared for the baby on his custody arrangement days. Perhaps his mother did.

A man who is able to kill the mother of his child is not one that is nurturing. Thus, I don’t think PF’s motive was over taking full custody of their daughter.

I believe KB broke up with him and he felt burned by her. I can envision an angry and jealous ex plotting the murder of his beautiful, successful, independent wife. It’s possible PF’s ego couldn’t handle being saddled with the baby all week while she enjoyed her career and would’ve been free to go on dates.

I also believe it’s possible KB wanted to move to Idaho to have her mother watch the baby instead. I’m not sure how PF would’ve taken that given I imagine his mother was closely bonded to the baby.

"I also believe it’s possible KB wanted to move to Idaho to have her mother watch the baby instead. I’m not sure how PF would’ve taken that given I imagine his mother was closely bonded to the baby."

I think that^^^ is the key right there. I think he wanted custody FOR HIS MOTHER'S SAKE. I think he did it to please his mother because he was so dependent upon her financially and emotionally. She would have been very upset to lose her time with her grand baby.