4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #81

[10ofRods]

If there was DNA under a girl's fingernails, that would be the DNA used in the PCA. A small sample found on the snap of a sheath could have been left by a previous owner of the sheath, no way to know. If there was also DNA under a victim's fingernails, that would almost certainly be related to the attack and THAT would be the DNA they used. I would be interested to know if the judge that signed the arrest warrant questioned the officers on the items in the affidavit.

So, you're saying that Kohberger's DNA (on the sheath) was left on it by...him, right? It has to be him. Dabbing tiny amounts of single source DNA onto the use point of an artifact is not something that happens. The dabber would be breathing. THEIR DNA would be mixed in with the other person's DNA (unless they were wearing SCUBA gear or something).

It was just one person's DNA. Partial DNA from the real culprit would be there too, IMO (via their breath).

But the lab says plainly it was single source (one person).

I don't see how Kohberger's DNA could get on the sheath without Kohberger touching it. I assume there's more of his DNA in the leather (but there, we would expect to find bovine DNA as well and perhaps the DNA of a manufacturing worker - although it should be minute at this point and should match the genetic markers from the region of manufacture).

The sample on the sheath clearly belongs to Kohberger, so are you saying that he could be the previous owner of the sheath?

If true, then it's crucial that they have the Amazon records. I find it entirely too large a coincidence that Kohberger was at 1122 King Road both at the time of the murders AND a few hours later, after driving through Lewiston/Clarkston and back to Pullman. I find it too coincidental that his phone goes off just outside of Moscow and then, on the route he took home, it goes back on. Same timeframe.

I doubt there's any DNA under anyone's fingernails. BK was apparently wearing a dark outfit with sleeves, shoes, gloves and a partial face mask. Victims get DNA under their fingers by clutching into the wrists and arms (and sometimes hands) of the knife attacker.

I feel that if someone can argue that the sheath DNA is innocuous, that it is a small step to arguing that fingernail DNA is similarly objectionable (the argument would then become that perhaps BK and a victim were very well known to each other and had a lover's quarrel). But I don't think BK had any scratches, I'll be surprised if he did.

At any rate, single source DNA doesn't get on a sheath belonging to a separate person who breathes, IMO.

 

[10ofRods]

I have a hard to pronounce name which provided for a pretty brutal (by elementary and middle school standards) first 14 or so years of my life. I'll always fondly remember and be thankful to the teachers who actually took the time to get it right before riffing off 2 to 3 ridiculous embarrassing pronunciations in a row before I, now in a cold sweat, interrupted the laughs to correct them.

Because of that, anytime I know I'm going to be in a meeting with someone, presenting something to someone, or simply reading someone's name off of a piece of paper I'll carefully review each and every one. First and Last.

If there are any names I don't immediately get I'll quickly search for it on Youtube. Since Kaylee is probably one of those names I wouldn't have looked up (the pronunciation looks pretty clear to me) it seems like Judge Judge resorted to recall (of the word) instead of actual pronunciation. Which is pretty low effort IMO. Regardless of how large his workload is. PARTICULARLY in murder/gross negligence and other life loss/bodily harm cases.

Yeah, I can't handle it if I mispronounce any names in class, so I ask if there's any doubt, and confirm my pronunciation. I write it out phonetically on the grade sheet, so I don't forget. I have about 800 students a year. I felt it was low effort, too. I think on the first real day of a big multiple homicide case, the Judge should be prepared. One 2 minute youtube video from his own home region would have done it. Of course, I've worked for lawyers whose reading skills were not the best (their legal secretaries and paralegals were crucial to them producing their pleadings; the funniest example was a young lawyer in charge of drawing up initial corporate paperwork for Chuck E. Cheese...he had a hard time remembering the E. in there and other minor reading problems; it was Chuck E. Cheese's Pizza Time Theater; I always wondered if he realized Chuck wasn't actually the owner).

Maybe Judge Judge was nervous. I can certainly understand that. It would be hard to look out and see the faces of family members.

Can anyone weigh in as to whether some judges ask casual questions of the State? Because the lawyers for the State certainly know the names of the victims. An hour was set for the arraignment, and it only took 15 minutes. He had time. (I hate to drag the Judge so early, but...there were a couple of things about him that bugged, especially after the amazing Judge in the Stauch trial).

IMO. This judge gets 3 out of 5 stars so far.

 

[schooling]

We have no reason to not believe that BK's actual DNA (swabs taken at arrest) have since been compared to the single source male dna sample on the snap button of the sheath. We have no reason at this point to assume that there are problems with the DNA evidence.MOO

<snipped by me for focus>

Yes!

If BK's DNA didn't match that of the DNA on the sheath....1) that's potentially exculpatory evidence that would have been handed to the defense attorney's long ago under Brady. especially in a potential death penalty case 2) prosecutors would likely withdraw the charges while they worked on their theory and searched for BK's long lost brother.

 

[Montecore1]

In defense of the judge with misprouncing names, you do realize that the judge has hundreds of cases before her.. she has seen misspelled and hard to pronounce names constantly...We are the oddballs living and reading this stuff day in and day out. There are 10 versions of Kaylee, Kayla, Kaylee, Kayleigh, Karyla, Khaley, Khalee.... You and I know how to say and spell everyone of the 4 because we have seen it 20 times a day for 3 months.

Maybe cut her a little slack. And she probably won't make that mistake again.

Well first of all the judge is a he not a she, perhaps you did not watch the video of him flubbing the kids names...2 out of 4 of them? It was quite disrespectful IMO

Now you can certainly feel the way you want like about this. But for me I give him no "slack"... I can guarantee you that this is the biggest and most public trial currently on his docket and I would assume ever for him. This case is being broadcast and viewed all over the world and IMO, MOO, TWISI, MPOV, ETC there is no excuse for that mistake... even Kaylee's sister made a comment about it after the hearing.

IMO just for the sake of the families and the victims (not to mention his own professionalism) he should have taken 5 mins to read the names and charges before the hearing and if he felt that he had any doubt in pronouncing the name "Kernodle" he should of asked someone closer to the case. He didn't make one mistake with the names he made two...

Yes, we follow the case here as do others, however for myself the first time I saw the name Kaylee, I did not even think it was Kayla.

 

[NuttMegg]

Why did BK stand "mute"/"silent" in his arraignment. Courtesy of @wary's post on previous thread I'm really wondering if the answer is this?

4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, 2022 #80

An Alford plea is a guilty plea, but without admitting guilty (no confession, no signed statement of guilt, etc). At least, that's what my research tells me. The Judge has to say that there was enough evidence to convict, but the defendant still maintains their innocence. So it's a "I'm going to...

www.websleuths.com

Texas:
“Mute” plea: In Texas, you may “stand mute” instead of making a plea. The court will then enter a plea of not guilty. By standing mute, you avoid silently admitting to the correctness of the proceedings against you until that point. You are then free to attack all previous proceedings that may have been irregular."

Arraignment - Barfield Law Firm

Once criminal charges are filed, you’ll make a court appearance known as an “arraignment.” If you are incarcerated, this will […]

www.barfieldlawfirm.net

After I read @wary's post I googled "standing mute" and came up with these links to law firms from three other US States:

Pennsylvania:
“Mute” plea: In Pennsylvania, you may “stand mute” instead of making a plea. The court will then enter a plea of not guilty. By standing mute, you avoid silently admitting to the correctness of the proceedings against you until that point. You are then free to attack all previous proceedings that may have been irregular."

Criminal Process Article - Fisher & Fisher Law Offices

The criminal process can be complex and confusing. But it's important to know your legal rights. The best way to be informed is to contact an attorney in

www.pocono-lawyers.com

Michigan:
Stand Mute” plea: In Michigan, you may “stand mute” instead of making a plea. The court will then enter a plea of not guilty on your behalf. By standing mute, you avoid silently admitting to the correctness of the proceedings against you until that point. You are then free to attack all previous proceedings that may have been irregular. Standing mute is treated procedurally the same as entering a plea of not guilty.

Defense Lawyers Michigan - Criminal Defense Attorney Michigan

Criminal Defense Attorney Michigan. The attorneys at are all experienced criminal defense attorneys that are in court defending clients against criminal prosecution on misdemeanor and felony offenses every day. Quite simply, criminal defense is the backbone of our law firm, and we have built our...

www.alllegalmatters.com

New York
“Mute” plea: In New York, you may “stand mute” instead of making a plea. The court will then enter a plea of not guilty. By standing mute, you avoid silently admitting to the correctness of the proceedings against you until that point. You are then free to attack all previous proceedings that may have been irregular."

Unionville Criminal Defense Lawyer • Unionville Criminal Defense Attorney, Unionville Criminal Defense Litigation New York

Unionville Criminal Defense Lawyer. Unionville Criminal Defense Attorney. Giordano Law Unionville Criminal Defense Litigation Firm. Speak With An Experienced Criminal Defense Lawyer in Unionville New York.<br />

www.westchestercountynylaw.com

I haven't found similar for Idaho yet, but am looking. Any legal eagles know if I am on the right track? Is there a reason why similar to above would not apply in Idaho?

MOO

That's a lot of work, thanks.

Just wondering why he verbalized his understanding of the charges? Why not stay mute on the whole shebang to silently protest the correctness of the proceedings? Are his rights limited to stand mute only to the plea?

 

[maskedwoman]

I went back and listened to the part on Dateline about the knife and Amazon and Dateline said the knife was purchased a month before BK's trip to WA. They do not say when LE was aware of the purchase so it may have been known before the PCA but more than likely LE was not aware of the purchase at the time of the PCA. JMO

The warrant to Amazon was signed by the judge on 11/26 and gave them 14 days to respond. The PCA was written 12.29 and BK was arrested December 30. So, assuming they received Amazon's response within the 14 days and they reviewed the response very shortly after it was received, they could have known he bought the knife in time to include it in the PCA.

I looked at the PCA again and it does not suggest that a knife that would fit that sheath matches up to the injuries. It merely states that they suffered sharp force injuries and that a knife sheath was found, and DNA was on it. Not sure what that means exactly, but thought I should mention it.

 

[jepop]

That's a lot of work, thanks.

Just wondering why he verbalized his understanding of the charges? Why not stay mute on the whole shebang to silently protest the correctness of the proceedings? Are his rights limited to stand mute only to the plea?

It really wasn't much work because google, but thank you for posting kind thoughts! It was actually @wary who discovered the link to the Texas law firm and I simply followed up and found same for other states (but not Idaho at this point but I assume this would apply to IDaho too). Seems to me there are strategic reasons for being mute in regard to plea. I guess he had to answer that he understood the charges, but by standing mute for plea he communicates that he is in disagreement with what he nonetheless understands. MOO

EBM clarity

 

[NuttMegg]

Judge John Judge is a man, just for the record. To me, there's only one way to pronounced Kaylee. One would think that the Judge had heard at least one news report about these murders. The press manages to pronounced them correctly. There's only one version of Kaylee in this case and it's not an unusual spelling like Khaley or Khalee (which I've never seen before and would have pronounced Kah-lee, most likely).

Xana: I get the mispronunciation. I would have supposed that Judge Judge had conversations off the record with both sets of attorneys and had opportunities to view some of the MSM coverage he's about to rule upon in the media motion. Did he pronounce it Zay-nuh?

We shall see if he corrects himself. One of the attorneys in the Letecia Stauch case had consistently trouble in the first week of trial with both parts of her name, and he was her own attorney.

IMO.

I think in this case it was pathetic but not strategic or purposeful, just lazy. Remember in the Depp case when Elaine (AH atty) kept calling Depp atty "VasqWez"? Now that was intentional, demeaning, an attempt to throw CV off her game.

imo

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

RBBM
"A small sample found on the snap of a sheath could have been left by a previous owner of the sheath, no way to know."

I may be misinterpreting in some way, but I truly do not understand what you mean here. How do you conclude that the sample found on the snap could have been left by a previous owner and that there is no way to know? Are you talking about the snap button of the sheath found at the crime scene?

All we know at this point is that the dna profile found on the snap button was single source male. That sample was compared with defendant's father's dna, which showed that the DNA on snap button was likely left by male whose father was 99.99998% likely to be BK's father. We have no reason to not believe that BK's actual DNA (swabs taken at arrest) have since been compared to the single source male dna sample on the snap button of the sheath. We have no reason at this point to assume that there are problems with the DNA evidence.MOO

I guess we can speculate about potential problems if so and so was to happen -IDK like some chain of custody problem, some problem with testing techniques that we currently know no details of?, but I see no current basis for assuming that so and so has happenned or is likely to happen. MOO

The DNA on the snap is touch DNA. Touch DNA can be transferred and is not proof the suspect left it at the scene of the crime. DNA under the fingernails could have only been left by the suspect and given that it can be washed off, likely in close proximity to the murders. It's not definitive, but it's much, much stronger in terms of evidence, IMO. I'm aware it's the totality of evidence, but we're discussing only the DNA. For PCA purposes, there's no reason not to use DNA under a victims fingernail if such a thing exists.

MOO.

 

[jepop]

The warrant to Amazon was signed by the judge on 11/26 and gave them 14 days to respond. The PCA was written 12.29 and BK was arrested December 30. So, assuming they received Amazon's response within the 14 days and they reviewed the response very shortly after it was received, they could have known he bought the knife in time to include it in the PCA.

I looked at the PCA again and it does not suggest that a knife that would fit that sheath matches up to the injuries. It merely states that they suffered sharp force injuries and that a knife sheath was found, and DNA was on it. Not sure what that means exactly, but thought I should mention it.

From memory, the return on Amazon warrant was around 7th December or so. But it can be checked for sure at
Idaho Judicial Cases of Interest
and scroll down to Amazon. Return date will be in affdavit by Laurence Mowery (sp?) MOO

 

[10ofRods]

Why would the families want to sue the City?
I’m not understanding this at all.

If evidence is eventually thrown out, due to that ongoing investigation of a Brady violation (already admitted by Moscow PD - probably unrelated to this case, but we don't know), then the family has a possible tort action against the City.

That's just one reason. There could be others.

IMO.

 

[10ofRods]

I think in this case it was pathetic but not strategic or purposeful, just lazy. Remember in the Depp case when Elaine (AH atty) kept calling Depp atty "VasqWez"? Now that was intentional, meant as a dig, an attempt to throw CV off her game.

imo

I don't think it's intentional by Judge Judge, I hope I didn't imply that.

It was cringeworthy, though. IMO.

 

[jepop]

The DNA on the snap is touch DNA. Touch DNA can be transferred and is not proof the suspect left it. DNA under the fingernails could have only been left by the suspect. It's much, much stronger in terms of evidence, IMO. I'm aware it's the totality of evidence, but we're discussing only the DNA. For PCA purposes, there's no reason not to use DNA under a victims fingernail if such a thing exists.

MOO.

You missed my point. Was not addressing fingernail dna or dna transfer. @10ofRods post is instructive. MOO

 

[NuttMegg]

I don't think it's intentional by Judge Judge, I hope I didn't imply that.

It was cringeworthy, though. IMO.

Oh no, I wasn't even thinking of that except agreeing that Kaylee is not all that much of a challenge for a person that deals with names day in and out. This is not meant as a joke, (given my own problems) but maybe he needs better reading glasses.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

You missed my point. Was not addressing fingernail dna or dna transfer. @10ofRods post is instructive. MOO

Sorry, should have snipped your post for focus. I'm responding to this: "How do you conclude that the sample found on the snap could have been left by a previous owner and that there is no way to know? Are you talking about the snap button of the sheath found at the crime scene?"

The rest of your post also follows that line of thinking in my interpretation, or am I wrong? It seems what you're saying is that the DNA they found on the snap is 100% BK's. I agree, completely. It is definitely BK's DNA (as far as we know; looking forward to finding out more about processing, but going by evidence we have now). My point is that it can 100% be BK's DNA with no other DNA found on it and still not mean BK was at the crime scene itself. Is that likely? Probably not, which is why I still say the DNA is the strongest evidence they have that we know about. But it's possible.

JMO.

 

[Boxer]

The DNA on the snap is touch DNA. Touch DNA can be transferred and is not proof the suspect left it at the scene of the crime. DNA under the fingernails could have only been left by the suspect and given that it can be washed off, likely in close proximity to the murders. It's not definitive, but it's much, much stronger in terms of evidence, IMO. I'm aware it's the totality of evidence, but we're discussing only the DNA. For PCA purposes, there's no reason not to use DNA under a victims fingernail if such a thing exists.

MOO.

Let's hope Xana got something in fighting for her life.

 

[Boxer]

The warrant to Amazon was signed by the judge on 11/26 and gave them 14 days to respond. The PCA was written 12.29 and BK was arrested December 30. So, assuming they received Amazon's response within the 14 days and they reviewed the response very shortly after it was received, they could have known he bought the knife in time to include it in the PCA.

I looked at the PCA again and it does not suggest that a knife that would fit that sheath matches up to the injuries. It merely states that they suffered sharp force injuries and that a knife sheath was found, and DNA was on it. Not sure what that means exactly, but thought I should mention it.

Did you see the OP that owns a similar knife and sheath, some type of batch from Amazon?
They said the closing snap or post is very difficult and they can easily see how DNA got ground far into the leather breaking it in.

 

[Sillybilly]

ADMIN REMINDER:

As per TOS, general discussion of the death penalty is one issue that is not allowed. In our experience, it only leads to bickering over personal beliefs. It is a social justice issue that will never be resolved through discussion at Websleuths. Members may discuss it as it relates directly to the potential of it being on the table in this specific case.

Same with politicizing. Political discussion in any fashion is a violation of TOS. IOW, reference to the Dems/Reps, blues/reds, etc has no place in this discussion. Politicizing is one violation that may result in permanent Warning Points being assigned.

Please familiarize yourselves with TOS and post accordingly.

Thanks !!

 

[North_Idaho_Nony]

Just one thing incase you didn't realise. The Judge is male. Judge John Judge.

ETA: I agree pretty much with you. It was an unfortunate mistake, but I'm sure it won't be repeated. I'm sure Judge John Judge is a good Judge, at least this mistake doesn't make him a bad judge or mean he is an insensitive Judge. MOO

Agree. I happen to have been "blessed" with a somewhat unusual first name that has been mispronounced my entire life by literally every new person I meet. This was a first hearing before Judge Judge & to me, it seemed to bother him that he stumbled over names. MOO

Gentle reminder we've seen the same struggles with name pronunciations from the beginning from many . . . and the name of my town continues to be mispronounced even by those who know the correct pronunciation. Sometimes people just stumble, MOO.

FWIW, I've sat in Judge Judge's court many times & have always found him to be professional & compassionate even in difficult cases. I trust that established pattern & character will continue in this horrific case.

As always, MOO.

 

[U.N. Known]

Why mention DNA under the fingernails if they have DNA on the sheath found on the bed? Do they disclose that early on? Does that usually take place? Not arguing. Just curious. As far as the gloves. It’s been reported his sisters noticed him wearing them around the house on Xmas break. I just found it odd a guy would walk around his family home with rubber gloves on.

I do not know. However, IMO a suspect's DNA under the fingernails of a murder victim is more telling/convincing/shows more probable cause than DNA on an object that could have been left or placed on the bed by someone else or at a different time. If I planned to use only one of the two pieces of evidence I would go with the evidence under the fingernails.

As for the gloves, I believe that came from the Dateline episode. Even if she said that I do not see its relevance to the murders. Even if he committed the murders why would his wearing gloves inside his home in PA six weeks afterward have any bearing on the case?