4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #94

[ChatteringBirds]

This tragedy seems to be breaking news:

Police said they responded to King Road for a report of an unconscious person. When officers arrived, they “discovered four individuals who were deceased...”

4 Idaho college students killed in 'targeted attack,' no suspects in custody

Four University of Idaho students were found dead on Sunday, officials said.

abcnews.go.com

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Media Thread/No Discussion
Media Thread/No Discussion #2

Probable Cause Affidavit

Press photo album (compilation courtesy of WS member cujenn81)

Moscow ID Police Department Facebook page

City of Moscow re King Road Homicide

Media Guide to the Idaho Courts

Detectives are looking to develop context for the events and people involved in the four murders at 1122 King Rd in Moscow, Idaho. Anyone who observed notable behavior, has video surveillance, or can provide relevant information about these murders:

• Telephone: 208-883-7180
• Email: tipline@ci.moscow.id.us
• Digital Media: fbi.gov/moscowidaho

 

[Knitty]

Please continue the discussion here.

 

[Boxer]

MOO There is an MH component here, so behavior like being up ay night with gloves seperating trash into ziplocs could be part of that. Taking trash to a neighbors can appears to be an attempt at concealment, even if also a compulsive behavior.
I agree with @GRT above, that whatever odd or even suspicious activity they found him doing when arrested won't be part of his prosecution.


To me its just as important that as SWAT broke into the house, which until obvious police actually gained entry could be interpreted as either SWAT or a house invasion, BK ran away downstairs instead of toward defending his parents.

 

[Balthazar]

MOO There is an MH component here, so behavior like being up ay night with gloves seperating trash into ziplocs could be part of that. Taking trash to a neighbors can appears to be an attempt at concealment, even if also a compulsive behavior.
I agree with @GRT above, that whatever odd or even suspicious activity they found him doing when arrested won't be part of his prosecution.


To me its just as important that as SWAT broke into the house, which until obvious police actually gained entry could be interpreted as either SWAT or a house invasion, BK ran away downstairs instead of toward defending his parents.

Nothing about BK separating trash is in the PCA nor anything about him taking trash to the neighbor's trash can, nor is the story about him cleaning his car with bleach wipes at the Kohberger house in Pennsylvania. Why would these "suspicious" allegations not be included in the PCA when Payne included that BK was seen walking along the side of his parents house and he went to the grocery store, both of which are non-suspicious, everyday things people do on a normal basis?

 

[Boxer]

Nothing about BK separating trash is in the PCA nor anything about him taking trash to the neighbor's trash can, nor is the story about him cleaning his car with bleach wipes at the Kohberger house in Pennsylvania. Why would these "suspicious" allegations not be included in the PCA when Payne included that BK was seen walking along the side of his parents house and he went to the grocery store, both of which are non-suspicious, everyday things people do on a normal basis?

Where in the affidavit is walking beside parents' house?
MOO the Albertons grocery trip included to show BK his phone and car together.

 

[Chloegirl]

On BK looking suspicious on the day after the murders.

One comment. There are about five grocery stores in Pullman. If you pass those, there are about five in Moscow. Passing them and going down to Costco sort of makes sense for warehouse pricing and stocking up, but it's a 45-minute drive. You can also spend far too much money on giant packages so people who are single don't tend to partake here.

Keep going further into the Lewiston/Clarkston Valley to find various other stores, like Safeway, Walmart, Target, etc. They can all be found in the Pullman and Moscow area. You can find two Albertsons (which mergered with Safeway in 2015, have similar inventory, and both names appear on their bags) in the LC Valley. Albertsons is not really the best option in terms of pricing, inventory, and location, considering it's that far away.

Places like WinCo in Moscow, well folks shop there because it's really inexpensive. In Pullman, it's Grocery Outlet for discounts, but a special trip down to Albertsons with the price of items and gas on the day after the murders is just illogical. JMOO

 

[Megnut]

BK was captured by CCTV with his Elantra at the grocery store. Before he was ever arrested. I'd expect to see that in a warrant for his arrest.

Awake at 4 am, putting trash in the neighbor's bin, sorting trash into baggies, wearing medical style gloves -- these are things that happened just before, around the time of or during the execution of the arrest warrant. That's evidence.

Might very well have been included in a second arrest warrant if for some reason beyond my imagination one had been needed.

JMO

 

[jepop]

Where in the affidavit is walking beside parents' house?
MOO the Albertons grocery trip included to show BK his phone and car together.

Will add, not sure how anything that occurred during BK's actual arrest could be included in the arrest warrant PCA which ofcourse was already filed in WAshington. Not logically possible. I suppose if P finds it useful and relevant, trash bagging at time of arrest may play some role in trial evidence but I personally don't think it would play a big role if any. moo

 

[Swansee]

IMO after reading the discussion about trash and baggies here, one thing that isn't clear to me is whether bodycams were worn during BK's arrest.
If bodycams were recording, it should settle this point once and for all.
If body cams were not worn, why not?

 

[Megnut]

Does anybody know? Does SWAT wear bodycams?

 

[Gemmie]

Does anybody know? Does SWAT wear bodycams?

Carbon county isn't mentioned.

4/29/24 -

So far, PSP troops covering 19 counties have successfully implemented body-worn cameras. PSP expects to have fully implemented body-worn cameras and updated mobile video recorders at all of its troops by the end of the first quarter of 2025.

[...]

The department initiated a rollout for body-worn cameras in 2023, beginning with Troop H, Carlisle station in Cumberland County. Body-worn cameras were next introduced throughout Troop H in the middle of the state. Now, all stations in troops A, B, G, H, and K have implemented body-worn cameras. This includes all stations covering Adams, Allegheny, Bedford, Blair, Cambria, Centre, Cumberland, Dauphin, Delaware, Fayette, Franklin, Fulton, Greene, Huntingdon, Indiana, Juniata, Mifflin, Montgomery, Perry, Philadelphia, Somerset, Washington, and Westmoreland counties.

PA State Police Details

www.media.pa.gov

 

[GRT]

Does anybody know? Does SWAT wear bodycams?

In this day and age -- I sure would have thought so, especially when executing a no-knock warrant in the middle of the night, but it appears they didn't wear any body cams.

The defense previously asked for body camera and dash camera footage of Kohberger's arrest at his parents' home in Pennsylvania in December of 2022, but the state claims there is no more of this footage beyond what they have provided -- and interestingly enough, say there is no body camera footage from this time at all.

 

[10ofRods]

IMO after reading the discussion about trash and baggies here, one thing that isn't clear to me is whether bodycams were worn during BK's arrest.
If bodycams were recording, it should settle this point once and for all.
If body cams were not worn, why not?

We may never know. Both the PCA and the arrest itself may not be particularly pertinent to trial. In fact, I can't think of a reason to bring it in. The odd behavior of a criminal defendant isn't usually brought in, except by psychiatric testimony (if there's an insanity plea, which there cannot be in this case, as Idaho doesn't have an insanity plea).

The inner workings of police forces, particularly SWAT teams, are not usually distributed to the public, IME.

There are hundreds of thousands of bodycam-recorded crimes in the US daily, and rarely do they become part of the public record except in cases involving alleged police misconduct. The arrest techniques of LE are not usually publicized.

IMO.

ETA: It appears that Carbon County doesn't have body cams? Which is still quite common - but at any rate, it appears SWAT didn't wear bodycams for this incident (again, SWAT is much like the military - they don't like disclosing all their tactics).

 

[Balthazar]

Why did the time of the crime change? It started at 2, moved to 3, then to after 4am.

Usually, LE would use hard scientific evidence such as time of death based on body temperature of the victims to determine when the crime happened. There is a simple equation called The Glaister Equation based on algor mortis which can be used to make this determination. It is known to be 98% accurate in determining time of death. This equation assumes rectal body temperature drops by 1.5 degrees per hour.

Algor mortis - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Glaister Equation is as follows:

98.4 degrees Fahrenheit - the rectal body temperature of the decedent/1.5 degrees per hour = Hours elapsed since death.

The ambient temperature can affect the results of the Glaister Equation. Heat is more problematic than cold. One of the rumors in this case is that the front door was open and 1122 was cold inside, but there is no mention of this in the PCA, so there DOES NOT APPEAR to be any reason to think that the Glaister Equation would not work in this case. And...there is another way in which time of death can be determined: Liver temperature can be used to determine time of death and this method is considered even more accurate in determining core body temperature than rectal temperature.

Another, less accurate way of determine time of death is the stomach contents. Did the victims have undigested food in their stomachs and where was it in the process of digestion? Reportedly XK and EC had pizza around midnight (per XK's father and sister) and there was a pizza box in the trash can on the back patio when CSI was investigating at the house which may have confirmed this and KG and MM had their carbonara after they got home around 1:45. There is a takeaway container in the same trashcan as the pizza box which resembles one of the types of takeaway containers that the food truck uses which may have confirmed if MM and KG ate the carbonara. We have reason to believe that they did not eat the carbonara on the way home because their driver told police that they were talking about eating the carbonara when they got home. You can see a photo of the trash here: Moscow Homicide

But reading the PCA, it says the time of the crime was determined by what DM told police and downloads of DM and BF's phones which we have learned showed them texting each other between 4am and 4:25am and a video of a white Elantra. This timeframe is problematic and contradictory because the white Elantra was still driving around at 4:04am and trying to do a 3-point turn, making the earliest time the driver could have parked and made entry into 1122 at 4:05am or as late as 4:08am. The vehicle is next seen leaving the neighborhood at 4:20am.

A Timeline of the Night of the Idaho College Murders (Published 2023)

New investigative details released on Thursday provide the first clear view of the apparent movements of the man accused of fatally stabbing four University of Idaho students on Nov. 13.

www.nytimes.com

With the time of the crime changing 3 times from 2am to 3am and finally 4am, I'm wondering if the victim's core temperatures and stomach contents indicated the crime took place closer to 2am? Shouldn't scientific evidence take precedence in determining the time of the crime?

All JMO.

 

[Nila Aella]

From @Balthazar last thread:

Sorry I think we have some crossed lines. I was referring to the CAST data reports that were presented at the Grand Jury and provided to defense during the hearing.

My question was why could they not give the CAST report created for the grand jury to the defense per discovery. Mowery had to run a second report the day before the hearing.

Excellent question.

And to add to your question, from yesterday's hearing, we learned that BT asked for this map to be produced and asked a specific MPD detective to create it the day before the hearing.
Doesn't that prove that BT:
1. Knew that the detective had the CAST files.
2. Knew that the CAST files did exist.
AND
3. Knew the CAST files were in the possession of MPD, not the FBI.

4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #93

(snipped for focus) this is the part that is confusing for me and perhaps there is a legal process or legal reasoning behind this, but what would be the difference between the report that was prepared for the grand jury a year ago and the report that was created for the Defense the day before...

www.websleuths.com

I'll add:
The files from the FBI in the possession of MPD were dated December 2022 and April 2023
The original screenshot the detective was asked to create was created on April 19 2023
The GJ report the detective created was on May 3 2023
JMO

IMO after reading the discussion about trash and baggies here, one thing that isn't clear to me is whether bodycams were worn during BK's arrest.
If bodycams were recording, it should settle this point once and for all.
If body cams were not worn, why not?

According to the States Response to Defendants Motion to Compel discovery: 5/12/2023
Page 2

l. The State has disclosed all items it is aware of relating to “the search and arrest of Bryan Kohberger in Pennsylvania.” The State is unaware of any “body camand dash cam footage” beyond what has been disclosed and, on information and belief, understands there is no body cam footage. Recordings of interviews and the Defendant’s transportation from the scene of arrest have also been provided.
BBM

https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/isc.coi/CR29-22-2805/051223+States+Response+to+Defendants+Motion+to+Compel+Discovery.pdf

 

[Cool Cats]

Why did the time of the crime change? It started at 2, moved to 3, then to after 4am.

Moscow Homicide

With the time of the crime changing 3 times from 2am to 3am and finally 4am, I'm wondering if the victim's core temperatures and stomach contents indicated the crime took place closer to 2am? Shouldn't scientific evidence take precedence in determining the time of the crime?

All JMO.

Xana was murdered and she was alive at
4:00am picking up door dash. Police said they have identified the driver, who reported the delivery to authorities during the investigation.

I do not see any murder timeline saying Xanax was murdered at 2 then 3 then 4.

The NY times is behind a paywall.

According to the affidavit, the one-hour timeframe has been narrowed to 25 minutes, with police thinking they were killed between 4 and 4:25 a.m.

It was also learned from the affidavit that police believe Kernodle was still alive by 4:12 a.m., as phone records indicate she was using TikTok.

 

[North_Idaho_Nony]

IMO after reading the discussion about trash and baggies here, one thing that isn't clear to me is whether bodycams were worn during BK's arrest.
If bodycams were recording, it should settle this point once and for all.
If body cams were not worn, why not?

It matters not a bit to the Moscow murders trial, MOO, whether body cams were worn during BK’s PA arrest.

For those interested in PA process, I suggest watching their presser:

 

[Cool Cats]

WA mom reclaims son’s story after University of Idaho murders
“Why does someone who doesn’t know my son get to capitalize on his death?” Stacy Chapin’s at work to save Ethan’s legacy from tabloid headlines.

by Aspen Anderson / May 24, 2024

WA mom reclaims son’s story after University of Idaho murders

“Why does someone who doesn’t know my son get to capitalize on his death?” Stacy Chapin’s at work to save Ethan’s legacy from tabloid headlines.

crosscut.com

Aficionados of true crime also latched onto the case almost immediately, to Stacy’s chagrin. A number of books have already been written on it. An academic spoke about the Idaho case at CrimeCon, a convention for true-crime aficionados.

“Why does someone who doesn’t know my son get to capitalize on his death?” Stacy said. “It kills me.”

After doing some research, she realized that anyone has the right to her son’s story, and these books were legal. She pondered how, as his mother, she could take the narrative back and tell people about the Ethan she knew.

One night she woke up abruptly and said, “I am going to write a book today.” Her children’s book about Ethan is titled The Boy Who Wore Blue.

 

[Balthazar]

Xanax was murdered and she was alive at
4:00am I believe picking up door dash.

I'm sure you meant to type Xana. But we really don't know who, if anyone picked up the DoorDash bag or even if the bag in the kitchen is the one that was ordered. I looked at the JITB menu and now I'm concerned about where the squeeze packet of applesauce that Mrs. G found in Kaylee's trash came from. Is it the same brand/size JITB carries? Is it evidence that LE missed? In case you missed what I found:

Order Online | Jack in the Box

Jack in the Box

www.jackinthebox.com

I do not see any murder timeline saying Xanax was murdered at 2 then 3 then 4.

Different Moscow authorities gave us different times.

"Nov. 17, 2022​

Preliminary autopsy results show that the four victims were likely attacked with a large knife and died sometime after 2 a.m. from multiple stab wounds, Latah County Coroner Cathy Mabbutt says.

She describes their wounds as "pretty extensive.""

A "very complex" case: The events that led to an arrest in the Idaho student slayings

The quadruple homicide stunned the college community of Moscow, sparking weeks of speculation and thousands of tips before culminating in an arrest.

www.nbcnews.com

By December 19, 2022, police thought the timeframe was between 3 and 4am:

Neighbour recalls hearing odd noise from crime scene on night of Idaho murders

The neighbour recalls hearing what he first thought was a scream or a “party sound” coming from the victims’ home before going to bed around 4am.

www.the-independent.com

Then when we saw the PCA the time was 4am.

The NY times is behind a paywall.

There are many free work-arounds for the New York Times:
1. You can get the articles for free if you start a 7 day free subscription and then cancel by the end of 7 days.
2. If you don't want to do that, no problem, go to your local public library website for free, login and read it there. If you don't normally use the library, it is free for everyone and your can create your own user ID and password and use it whenever you want. Mine has the entire NY Times online for free for all library members.

According to the affidavit, the one-hour timeframe has been narrowed to 25 minutes, with police thinking they were killed between 4 and 4:25 a.m.

According to the PCA the white Elantra was still driving around at 4:06. The timeframe for the murders is about 12 - 13 minutes at most, maybe less. It's a lot to accomplish for one person in a short amount of time.

It was also learned from the affidavit that police believe Kernodle was still alive by 4:12 a.m., as phone records indicate she was using TikTok.

You don't have to interface with TikTok for it to appear that you are using it. She may have been using TikTok before she was murdered and it was left on afterwards. There would be no way to know for how long.

I personally have no opinion as to what time the murders took place without seeing the body core temperatures and stomach contents evidence from the autopsies and knowing whether or not it was verified that MM and KG ate the carbonara after their arrival home and XK and EC ate pizza near midnight. I think they probably ate due to the boxes in the trash, so that should give some insight to time of death along with core temperatures.

 

[10ofRods]

Where in the affidavit is walking beside parents' house?
MOO the Albertons grocery trip included to show BK his phone and car together.

Exactly. That bit of video from Albertson's definitely shows the Elantra and BK together, along with BK's phone. Those are the kinds of things a PCA needs, to connect the dots.

Now that the Judge has reviewed all that and bound him over for the trial (Judge Judge will see more than we, the public, will ever see), the crucial aspect of this case is that the Court has reviewed all the existing evidence and believes a jury must decide guilt or non-guilt.

I'm guessing that by now, there's tons of evidence showing BK, his phone (including GPS, far better than cell tower data), and car association. To be honest, the fact that BK owned the car and no one else's DNA has been reported to be in it, is enough for me. I don't need to see multiple surveillance videos, as a juror, in order to believe that BK had a white Elantra. What I'd want to see are the videos of a white Elantra at or near 1122 King Road, or on the roads nearby on the night of the murders.

Trials cannot be infinitely long. BK's walking alongside a road in PA is not relevant in any way establishing the chain of events from weeks before, in Idaho.

IMO.